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Judgement calls vs "railroading"
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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7057274" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>I call it trial and error; and see it in many ways as part of the game: see also my (probably far too) many posts in here re a) magic item identification and b) metagame knowledge vs. player knowledge, where I also support trial-and-error play rather than just having information handed to you (items) and-or pre-loaded (metagame).</p><p></p><p>And here I disagree, which by now is probably rather obvious: I see it as well within the DM's purview to drop all sorts of surprises on the characters...some good, some bad. Where it becomes railroading is when such is done out of spite (I've seen this) or to force the party to stay on mission rather than do something else. </p><p></p><p>OK - I didn't realize this was an element introduced on the fly.</p><p></p><p>And that makes it an <em>even bigger problem that it already was!</em> Why? </p><p></p><p>Because now every interaction that has ever happened with the brother in previous play has just been invalidated. He was evil all along, it seems, but any previous interactions with him didn't have that sitting there as part of his backstory and-or personality (known only to you-as-GM as he is, I believe, an NPC) and thus couldn't be a part of driving what he did or said. In other words, the internal consistency of that character just took one hell of a beating.</p><p></p><p>Because when a GM is at the helm and knows the surprises ahead of time she can filter what happens in the game (outside what the players do with their own characters) through those unknown elements and thus keep things somewhat consistent.</p><p></p><p>And again, if this had been known all along there could have been some consistency; and possibilities for roleplay that are now lost: maybe the evil brother let something slip at some point, for example. Can't happen now - it's too late.</p><p></p><p>You're saying the arrows represent a failure; I'd say they represent a success of a sort: it's confirmed that the brother was bent all along. Now whether or not that's something the party wants to know is irrelevant - they know it now.</p><p></p><p>That said, it's hard to contradict backstory that doesn't exist even when it probably should have.</p><p></p><p>It can be done provided nobody cares too much about the validity of or consistency with what has gone before.</p><p></p><p>What I had in mind was somewhere between colour and framing, I suppose, as in my example I was thinking (but didn't type where I should have done) the PCs hadn't had much if anything to do with the Baron up till now but they had been to the town numerous times before: I'd envisioned it as their home base. It's changed while the party was out in the field but said change has nothing to do with the party's previous actions in any way.</p><p></p><p>But, it's still the DM doing something off-screen that has effects on-screen - so is it framing, railroad, or neither? (I say "neither", it's just the world moving on...)</p><p></p><p>Re: character secrets:</p><p></p><p>I've never read Robin Laws but the more I hear about him (her?) the less I'm interested; this statement merely adds to that feeling as I probably couldn't disagree with it more.</p><p></p><p>Player knowledge and character knowledge should be the same, particularly with regards to the other characters! (it's the metagame business again: Laws is clearly a fan of metagame knowledge, where I am not).</p><p></p><p>Lanefan</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 7057274, member: 29398"] I call it trial and error; and see it in many ways as part of the game: see also my (probably far too) many posts in here re a) magic item identification and b) metagame knowledge vs. player knowledge, where I also support trial-and-error play rather than just having information handed to you (items) and-or pre-loaded (metagame). And here I disagree, which by now is probably rather obvious: I see it as well within the DM's purview to drop all sorts of surprises on the characters...some good, some bad. Where it becomes railroading is when such is done out of spite (I've seen this) or to force the party to stay on mission rather than do something else. OK - I didn't realize this was an element introduced on the fly. And that makes it an [I]even bigger problem that it already was![/I] Why? Because now every interaction that has ever happened with the brother in previous play has just been invalidated. He was evil all along, it seems, but any previous interactions with him didn't have that sitting there as part of his backstory and-or personality (known only to you-as-GM as he is, I believe, an NPC) and thus couldn't be a part of driving what he did or said. In other words, the internal consistency of that character just took one hell of a beating. Because when a GM is at the helm and knows the surprises ahead of time she can filter what happens in the game (outside what the players do with their own characters) through those unknown elements and thus keep things somewhat consistent. And again, if this had been known all along there could have been some consistency; and possibilities for roleplay that are now lost: maybe the evil brother let something slip at some point, for example. Can't happen now - it's too late. You're saying the arrows represent a failure; I'd say they represent a success of a sort: it's confirmed that the brother was bent all along. Now whether or not that's something the party wants to know is irrelevant - they know it now. That said, it's hard to contradict backstory that doesn't exist even when it probably should have. It can be done provided nobody cares too much about the validity of or consistency with what has gone before. What I had in mind was somewhere between colour and framing, I suppose, as in my example I was thinking (but didn't type where I should have done) the PCs hadn't had much if anything to do with the Baron up till now but they had been to the town numerous times before: I'd envisioned it as their home base. It's changed while the party was out in the field but said change has nothing to do with the party's previous actions in any way. But, it's still the DM doing something off-screen that has effects on-screen - so is it framing, railroad, or neither? (I say "neither", it's just the world moving on...) Re: character secrets: I've never read Robin Laws but the more I hear about him (her?) the less I'm interested; this statement merely adds to that feeling as I probably couldn't disagree with it more. Player knowledge and character knowledge should be the same, particularly with regards to the other characters! (it's the metagame business again: Laws is clearly a fan of metagame knowledge, where I am not). Lanefan [/QUOTE]
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