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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7057431" data-attributes="member: 6696971">It didn't exist at all (that is, it wasn't an established part of the fiction/play conversation) until the Elf fell in.  The snowbridge-covered crevasse didn't exist until the Scout roll was failed on the Undertake a Perilous Journey move.  Earthmaw did exist as a result of action resolution in a prior scene (as I noted in the initial post I linked you).  The players were heading across the dangerous frozen wilderness to resupply and beseech the Hobgoblin King for aid and audience with the Blizzard/White Dragon Averandox that claimed the highlands as its domain.  So while the rest of the group made it to Earthmaw proper after getting out of the crevasse pickle, the elf splashed down in a freezing underground river that led to Earthmaw's garbage basement.  This course was fraught with serious peril (exposure/monsters/being thrust right into the middle of the "Aliens" trope siege of Earthmaw) and threatened to put a serious monkey-wrench in future parley with the Hobgoblin King.So...he did make to Earthmaw...just not how he had intended (and with serious complications/obstacles to deal with/ovrercome).  This is classic Fail Forward.If you're wondering "why isn't this Fail Forward an instance of GM Force(?)", then this would be a perfect point to have a conversation about the nuance of GMing techniques, GMing principles, and play procedures.  If you do get why it isn't, then good deal!  Games like DW are good with, and actively encourage, stuff that is pretty much just mechanical markers that are indirect proxies for other stuff (HP are whatever the hell they are...Adventuring Gear, Ammo, Bag of Books, etc are just a number (typically 1 - 4) to reflect an abstract resource) to be made transparent.  Strike(!), 13th Age, and 4e is the same way although 4e is a bit more "do whatever you want but here is the advantage of doing it this way" about it.Beyond that, just on a personal note, I have long...long...long since made system artifacts like HP that just serve as mechanical markers transparent to my players.  (1) It decreases table handling time in action/scene resolution and (2) the PC would understand in the game exactly whatever it is supposed to mean in the fiction.  So I want my players to be oriented in that same way/occupy that same head-space.  Otherwise, they're filtering their OODA Loop through me in a side conversation game of "how do I extract this information that my character would have but I, the player, can only engage with these system artifacts".  Basically...D&D gave us the elegant mechanical marker of HPs to deal with (along with turn-based combat rounds and initiative, action economy, Armor Class, etc etc).  The machinery is what it is.  System architecture to orient players (not PCs) and more easily facilitate action resolution.  It isn't the fiction and it can't translate directly to the fiction.  So don't try to obfuscate its functionality.  It will fight you and it will slow things down.  Happily, Dungeon World doesn't have loads and loads of HPs!  It doesn't have Initiative!  It doesn't have Action Economy!  It doesn't have AC!  It has fiction.  It has elegant action resolution mechanics.  It has very clear play procedures.  It has tightly integrated reward cycles and resources.  It has a coherent agenda and principles.If that would have been a B/X scenario, then there would have been much more prep.  B/X requires multiple fully prepped (mapped + stocked + keyed + Wandering Monsters) dungeons of varying levels/settings/themes.  Players figure out where they want to go in the Town phase of play and off we go.  Dungeon World prep is not just extremely lighter, but in its own lightness it is different than B/X prep.  Torchbearer is basically an indie, much more complex version of B/X with much more thematic meat on its bone.Well, that is B/X for you.  Its actually extremely easy to GM.  The mechanics are elegant, intuitive, and extremely light-weight and coherent compared to AD&D.  Its basically Exploration Turns + Rest + Encounters + Monster Reactions + Combat + Pursuit and Evasion + Wandering Monsters and the little subtle nuances therein.  A GM who has run it more than once will be able to run it simply (and the rulebooks are beautifully put together and easily referencable...though you likely won't need to).The B/X version of action resolution for something like your describing is different than AD&D (where you're rolling below Dex/NWPs).  B/X handles that stuff with 1d6 and typically with a 1 (or sometimes 1 and 2) and you've got success.  I think (maybe?) I noted that in my post, but I went with the other adjudication (just say yes and have it affect surprise round.  I did that because the Elf has so many advantages in that situation (is in the dark...sees in the dark...has infravision), is a dextrous character, and that is what they do.  If you feel like there should be a 17% or 33 % chance that something could go wrong there, then obviously you would go with the alternate adjudication.  Dungeon World has a melee move for if you're actively engaged in an exchange with a worthy opponent.  No exchange/worthy opponent and/or the fiction presents the situation that you should just deal your damage (or be afforded the choice to straight kill your adversary), then that is what you do.  B/X does have a roll to hit, but this goblin would not engage in combat (due to morale 2 or below), so its irrelevant.  If that were an actual B/X game, he's either just going to die or he is going to potentially turn into an issue for the PC where pursuit triggers a Wandering Monster check and the prior Aboleth (or a new one...or both...or maybe a hobgoblin overseer with guards or something) becomes a lurking threat again.By themselves, these little, pathetic goblin laborers aren't even the slightest threat to a level 3 Elven Arcane Duelist (or he may have been 4 at that point...can't recall) or level 3 B/X Elf (2 first level spells and 1 second).  Well, again, that is just the play procedures of the system and the GM-side action resolution mechanics that would have to be consulted.  The actual fiction and the conversation at the table wouldn't entail that kind of stuff (except where it needs to for player clarity).In B/X, time passed (due to Exploration Turns) triggering the Wandering Monster clock would do the heavy lifting in what you describe above.In DW, I'd be thinking about the Aboleth while we play (it did come back into play later...as well as several others during the parley with the Hobgoblin King!).  The overhead for a DW GM with what you're talking about is when and how to use that Aboleth.  There are two ways:*  "Soft Move":   This can be the initial framing of a situation or a 7-9 result on a player move where I do something like "reveal an unwelcome truth", "show signs of an approaching threat", "grant an opportunity with a cost", or "put someone in a spot"  It doesn't have immediate, irrevocable consequences.  However, if the players don't respond to/deal with the situation then they've presented me a golden opportunity for a "Hard Move."Lets go back to Aliens.  Think of the trope where someone sees either signs of acid burning through fuselage/structure or they see signs of slimy goop and what looks like something just molted.  The Elf could have easily come across signs of either (this happened later in the DW game), except its nasty mucous haze rather than acid.* "Hard Move":  This happens when the player(s) ignores or doesn't appropriately deal with my soft move.  Or it can be triggered by a player move that results in a 6 or less.  Now I might decide to "use a monster/danger/location move", "deal damage", "use up their resources", etc.  The lurking Aboleth jumps on them from above, disorienting them with their mucous haze or burgeoning mind magic, and attempts to devour them!In light of my response, do you have any thoughts about any of those instances being GM Force?Just for quick clarity, a GM "saying yes" to a player proposal can never be a case of GM Force, even if the GM thinks the direction that play will go as a result of the player's proposal is thematically coherent or interesting.  GM Force is about the mesh of system agency, player agency, and the trajectory of play being subordinate to GM fiat.</blockquote>

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