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Message: <blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 7070588" data-attributes="member: 6785785">[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]I don't have the time to give your post the reply that I think it deserves. But I will make a few points as I see them. I am sure I am missing something because I don't play Dungeon World, and I'm only vaguely familiar with its mechanics; your references to different types of moves aren't all that clear to me, why do some have names like Defy Danger and others are just described as hard moves? Is it a player move versus GM move? I'm not sure....and I'd rather not big things down with an explanation of all the rules.What I get out of the DW description is that the dice determine the success or failure of a given action, and the GM then uses judgment to determine the results. In your 5E description, I feel you're assuming manipulation of the roll results. And I see how one system may lend itself to such abuse more than the other, but I don't really see how the DW example avoids GM driven material. Perhaps I am mixing different parts of the discussion?The way i see the scenario, this little sojourn into Earthmaw is a kind of "side trek" (sorry [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]!)...meaning it happened as a result of the PC falling into a crevasse and then into an underground river. You also said this was all determined on the fly. So the story of the hobgoblin kingdom and the PCs' relationship (and their kingdom/home?) is still there in the background. A kind of main story that looms over everything. And this "side trek" is turning out to be more than that because how the PC handles the situation could impact things in the larger conflict. That's the situation as I understand it. If I'm wrong let me know.I see a GM presence in the scenario either way. It seems more a question of how. Let's set aside actual manipulation of roll results and the like. The GM in DW is determining this scenario on the fly, and yet it dovetails into the "larger" story. How is that not nudging things toward what the GM wants? I think that perhaps the crux of the matter comes down to a question of the Outcome. I don't think that [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] or [MENTION=6802765]Xetheral[/MENTION] or myself are abdicating a predetermined outcome. I think that we all expect the actual outcome to depend on how the PCs deal with what comes their way.Which is why I think your example of 5E play was a bit of an exaggeration. Yes, the DM can set a DC and keep that DC secret and then twist the die result to whatever he wants. In this case the implication is a nudge towards conflict with the hobgoblins. This could happen of course, but without good reason I don't think it's a good idea, nor do I think anyone is saying that would be the way to handle it.I think instead, when those of us in the thread are advocating for GM driven material, what we're talking about is that "main plot" of the relationship with the hobgoblin kingdom. That's the main focus of the campaign/adventure/what have you, and so we try to keep things from moving too far afield from that. That's what the GM has worked on, that's how things have taken shape in the game, and so on. It doesn't mean that the GM has decided the outcome must be war, or anything quite so strict.</blockquote>

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