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Judgement calls vs "railroading"
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<blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 7080818" data-attributes="member: 6785785"><p>If it was an inn your character was familiar with, sure. I would expect the GM to let you make that call, unless there was some compelling reason not to (perhaps the map of the inn would not support such a placement?) </p><p></p><p>If it was an inn you were not familiar with, then your character would have to look around to see where coats are hung....the equivalent of saying to the GM "I look around to see where the coats are hung..." and having the GM say "on hooks by the door." Now, many GMs may be fine with a player determining a rather mundane detail like the coathooks because they likely wouldn't impact play. That may be different for elements of play that might impact the game more. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well I was looking at immersion as an element serving role-playing....the more immersed you are, the easier to adopt the role, yes? So in this case I don't really see a problem with conflating the two. I don't see an instance of a player asking a GM "where are the coathooks?" to be any worse than an actual person having to look around a room for coathooks when they walk into a room for the first time. If a character walked into an inn and then went to hang his cloak on a coathook by the door....only to find no coathooks, I would not expect such a panic that made them question their place in the world. Same with a player having to ask the GM to confirm such a detail. It's a minor blip in the grand scheme. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In the sense that more prep creates a more dynamic rather than static environment. Situations and locations and interactions exist prior to PC involvement, and continue after PC involvement. This would create verisimilitude, which I think would support immersion. </p><p></p><p>Now, improv and deciding on the fly are necessities even in games with a lot of GM prep...it's the nature of the beast. But I think that the clearer the picture of the world ahead of time, the easier it is to handle those times when details are needed on the fly. If the players unexpectedly jump aboard a ship as it leaves port, if the GM knows many places where the ship may be going, it will be easier for him to decide where the ship will be going, and why, and who may be aboard, and other details that may be influenced by the elements of the fictional world. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's not necessarily that the player NEEDS to be stopped....but what if it seems better if he was? Let's say the player came up with an idea for some rivalry with his PC's brother. The PC and his brother do not get along, ad have a longstanding enmity. This is decided at character generation. So the GM takes this into consideration, and comes up with some ways to bring the brother into the campaign. </p><p></p><p>Now, the player simply decides that his brother is there before him; maybe the player feels an immediate confrontation may be exciting. And that's possible. But the GM may have had another idea that he thinks will be better, but it has to take place further into the campaign. This is where, in a game like mine, the DM has to make a judgement call, and has to decide which of the two approaches would be better/more dramatic/more exciting/etc. and make the call. </p><p></p><p>This is why I prefer to allow the players to have input in the fiction at certain points, but not at any and all decision points within the game. This also ties into my mentioning of craft. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is kind of why I feel GM judgment is the best "mechanic" for handling these kinds of elements...especially since each of the mechanics you mention above still require some level of GM judgment anyway. Now, I can understand the element of giving the player a resource to spend to influence the fiction...especially depending on the setting. Such a mechanic seems designed with a super-heroic setting in mind. The hero finds himself in a death trap, and spends a plot point to determine that there is a rafter hanging over the pit, and he has one bat-rope tucked away in his boot. That kind of thing. </p><p></p><p>But to try and influence something such as a newly introduced NPC's secret affiliation? I prefer that to remain within the GM's purview....which seems to be a view you share based on how you handled that scene. Obviously, this will vary depending on the scene or circumstances in question. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure. It would seem kind of odd that a player who wants the search for his rival be a part of the game to force a confrontation off the bat...but I am sure we can come up with reasons where that may happen. But here you talk about having trust in the players....which I think is a good thing, but which I think also applies to the GM. Trusting the players to introduce the fiction they want in a way that seems dynamic and interesting does not sound all that different from a more GM oriented style.....the players have to trust that the GM will incorporate their wants for the game, and the desires established for their characters, in a way that will be dynamic and interesting. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, I agree. I think that is really exactly what I am advocating. It's just that, in my game, a lot of these elements are decided up front in some way. We do add many elements as we go, usually when a player says to me some new idea or character element that he wants to explore, whether it's something brand new, or something that has emerged through play. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think that pre-authorship must be better...certainly there are on the spot decisions that I or my players have made that have been some of the best things in our game. But in general, I think that more often than not, a thought out story will be better than one created on the fly. So for me, when I say craft, what I mean is the GM's ability to view the options at hand, and decide the best for the game, whether that's a pre-authored element he had come up with, or some crazy tangent introduced due to player action. </p><p></p><p>So let's say that the GM is weighing some inspiring moment by the players that leads the story in an unexpected way, versus the story he already had in mind which had a long term payoff that he expected to be a truly exciting moment. The GM has to decide which will actually be better for the game and story. In those moments, I try to be as impartial as possible and do what I think will be the most fun. And despite my predisposition toward pre-authored elements, I still often will let the inspiring moment carry the events. </p><p></p><p>This is why I advocate an approach that does not force me down one road because of "principles". Some folks would always go with the player introduced content, others would always go with the GM introduced content. I can see a case for either....so I decide based on the actual instance in question. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, some games have mechanics in place that help establish certain game elements automatically, as you say. I can understand that. to kind of use your example of 4E combat....other combats in other systems can also be made to be dramatic. They may require more effort on the part of the GM rather than the rules, though. I believe that's the point you are making, correct? So games that have similarly designed rules for the story building element of the game may take some of the burden off of the GM, and create a recognized and more uniform approach to that aspect of the game. That's kind of what I am getting out of your example. And I wouldn't disagree.</p><p></p><p>As I've said, I don't think that having many elements that are pre-authored by the GM means that the players cannot also drive the story of the game. I think it's really just a question of how it comes about. For me, I find collaboration with the players at the start of the game and throughout to be the biggest factor. In the 5E system, I don't think there are many mechanical expressions to enforce this approach....but I prefer a looser system in that regard.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hawkeyefan, post: 7080818, member: 6785785"] If it was an inn your character was familiar with, sure. I would expect the GM to let you make that call, unless there was some compelling reason not to (perhaps the map of the inn would not support such a placement?) If it was an inn you were not familiar with, then your character would have to look around to see where coats are hung....the equivalent of saying to the GM "I look around to see where the coats are hung..." and having the GM say "on hooks by the door." Now, many GMs may be fine with a player determining a rather mundane detail like the coathooks because they likely wouldn't impact play. That may be different for elements of play that might impact the game more. Well I was looking at immersion as an element serving role-playing....the more immersed you are, the easier to adopt the role, yes? So in this case I don't really see a problem with conflating the two. I don't see an instance of a player asking a GM "where are the coathooks?" to be any worse than an actual person having to look around a room for coathooks when they walk into a room for the first time. If a character walked into an inn and then went to hang his cloak on a coathook by the door....only to find no coathooks, I would not expect such a panic that made them question their place in the world. Same with a player having to ask the GM to confirm such a detail. It's a minor blip in the grand scheme. In the sense that more prep creates a more dynamic rather than static environment. Situations and locations and interactions exist prior to PC involvement, and continue after PC involvement. This would create verisimilitude, which I think would support immersion. Now, improv and deciding on the fly are necessities even in games with a lot of GM prep...it's the nature of the beast. But I think that the clearer the picture of the world ahead of time, the easier it is to handle those times when details are needed on the fly. If the players unexpectedly jump aboard a ship as it leaves port, if the GM knows many places where the ship may be going, it will be easier for him to decide where the ship will be going, and why, and who may be aboard, and other details that may be influenced by the elements of the fictional world. It's not necessarily that the player NEEDS to be stopped....but what if it seems better if he was? Let's say the player came up with an idea for some rivalry with his PC's brother. The PC and his brother do not get along, ad have a longstanding enmity. This is decided at character generation. So the GM takes this into consideration, and comes up with some ways to bring the brother into the campaign. Now, the player simply decides that his brother is there before him; maybe the player feels an immediate confrontation may be exciting. And that's possible. But the GM may have had another idea that he thinks will be better, but it has to take place further into the campaign. This is where, in a game like mine, the DM has to make a judgement call, and has to decide which of the two approaches would be better/more dramatic/more exciting/etc. and make the call. This is why I prefer to allow the players to have input in the fiction at certain points, but not at any and all decision points within the game. This also ties into my mentioning of craft. This is kind of why I feel GM judgment is the best "mechanic" for handling these kinds of elements...especially since each of the mechanics you mention above still require some level of GM judgment anyway. Now, I can understand the element of giving the player a resource to spend to influence the fiction...especially depending on the setting. Such a mechanic seems designed with a super-heroic setting in mind. The hero finds himself in a death trap, and spends a plot point to determine that there is a rafter hanging over the pit, and he has one bat-rope tucked away in his boot. That kind of thing. But to try and influence something such as a newly introduced NPC's secret affiliation? I prefer that to remain within the GM's purview....which seems to be a view you share based on how you handled that scene. Obviously, this will vary depending on the scene or circumstances in question. Sure. It would seem kind of odd that a player who wants the search for his rival be a part of the game to force a confrontation off the bat...but I am sure we can come up with reasons where that may happen. But here you talk about having trust in the players....which I think is a good thing, but which I think also applies to the GM. Trusting the players to introduce the fiction they want in a way that seems dynamic and interesting does not sound all that different from a more GM oriented style.....the players have to trust that the GM will incorporate their wants for the game, and the desires established for their characters, in a way that will be dynamic and interesting. Sure, I agree. I think that is really exactly what I am advocating. It's just that, in my game, a lot of these elements are decided up front in some way. We do add many elements as we go, usually when a player says to me some new idea or character element that he wants to explore, whether it's something brand new, or something that has emerged through play. I don't think that pre-authorship must be better...certainly there are on the spot decisions that I or my players have made that have been some of the best things in our game. But in general, I think that more often than not, a thought out story will be better than one created on the fly. So for me, when I say craft, what I mean is the GM's ability to view the options at hand, and decide the best for the game, whether that's a pre-authored element he had come up with, or some crazy tangent introduced due to player action. So let's say that the GM is weighing some inspiring moment by the players that leads the story in an unexpected way, versus the story he already had in mind which had a long term payoff that he expected to be a truly exciting moment. The GM has to decide which will actually be better for the game and story. In those moments, I try to be as impartial as possible and do what I think will be the most fun. And despite my predisposition toward pre-authored elements, I still often will let the inspiring moment carry the events. This is why I advocate an approach that does not force me down one road because of "principles". Some folks would always go with the player introduced content, others would always go with the GM introduced content. I can see a case for either....so I decide based on the actual instance in question. Sure, some games have mechanics in place that help establish certain game elements automatically, as you say. I can understand that. to kind of use your example of 4E combat....other combats in other systems can also be made to be dramatic. They may require more effort on the part of the GM rather than the rules, though. I believe that's the point you are making, correct? So games that have similarly designed rules for the story building element of the game may take some of the burden off of the GM, and create a recognized and more uniform approach to that aspect of the game. That's kind of what I am getting out of your example. And I wouldn't disagree. As I've said, I don't think that having many elements that are pre-authored by the GM means that the players cannot also drive the story of the game. I think it's really just a question of how it comes about. For me, I find collaboration with the players at the start of the game and throughout to be the biggest factor. In the 5E system, I don't think there are many mechanical expressions to enforce this approach....but I prefer a looser system in that regard. [/QUOTE]
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