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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 7082505" data-attributes="member: 48965">Yes but if the expectation that various techniques will use within the framework of the games rules... and the DM is transparent with said techniques... isn't that value still attained/maintained?So is it from a DM perspective, a players perspective or both that you find the mixing of techniques non-satisfactory?  Also I'd like to delve further into some of the comments above but I want to make sure I have a grasp on and am on the same page when it comes to what you are expressing here... Can you give an example where meaningful decisions are made untenable through the using of various techniques in the same game or play session?  On a side note I find [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s (and I believe [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s as well) way of playing (at least as they have described it and given examples of it in this thread) to have the same type of dissonance for me (the feeling of not having the ground beneath my feet)... where my chance to spot something, instead of determining whether I see it, actually determines whether it exists in the fiction or not at all... and/or whether my brother is evil.  How do I determine what the consequences of failure for an action are when it can be anything deemed appropriate by the DM. I'm not sure I agree with all of this.  We are still playing the same game if the DM is transparent about how he will be running it (even if using a variety of techniques).  We do depend on the GM to smooth over (I would say give screen time too) the conflicts of interest that individuals may have due to their differing desires and goals for the game.  Now where I disagree...I would say that the GM arbitrating social conflicts is not a requirement in a GM-Driven game... players are just as free to work out their social conflicts with each other as they are to call on the GM to intervene.  And where you see this as a lack of trust in the players I see this as giving trust to the DM.  I often find this preferable because the DM tends to have an overall view of the game and isn't advocating for one particular character (remember we are not discussing the worst case scenario but instead are assuming DM's with integrity as the default).I also don't agree that a DM driven game puts all the responsibility for fun on the DM.  It give the DM certain parameters in which to design so that he accommodates the various player types at his table but they still are responsible for engaging with and making choices about the DM generated content and fiction that bring about fun for themselves.  As a DM I don't find this onerous at all... but instead relish the creative experience of designing the world and the uncertainty around how or even if the players will choose to have their characters interact with what is put before them.  For me that's what I enjoy about running the game.  While I agree that all playing the games are peers and collaborators... I don't agree that in order to achieve this we all must have equal say in all parts of the game.  I see the player and DM roles as fundamentally different but equal for the enjoyment of the play experience.          I can't speak for [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] but I can say that I have no issues with a player airing a grievance about the fiction or group direction openly... as long as it doesn't bring the play to a screeching halt for 2 hours.  See the thing is sometimes with a group, especially of individuals advocating for themselves... these types of discussions can drag the entire game down... where as one trusted person who makes a decision all are willing to accept can keep the game going and avoid deadlock arguments.  I would have to know more about the type of hacking and adjustments you are speaking to in your last sentence to comment on it.  Are you saying in the middle of the game a player can change the abilities his character has?  Rewrite the fiction of a room?  Add fiction to said room?  Or what exactly?</blockquote>

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