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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Campbell" data-source="post: 7084580" data-attributes="member: 16586">When it comes down to the adviser example put forth by [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] my own concerns would be entirely focused on the fiction. Was the defeat significant? Did he pay an appropriate social cost? I would have no issues with attempts to mitigate that defeat as long as they came from a place where the GM was playing all their NPCs with integrity and giving the players the victory they have earned. Don't be a weasel are words to live by whether you are a GM or another player. I absolutely believe in maintaining a spirit of fair play. That being said I believe [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] made the right call for the game he was running. If I was running 4e I would have made the same call.  Part of playing any game involves taking on its own interests.All that being said I am not really a fan of of games in which player intent becomes a fixture of play. I think it can lead to all sorts of perverse incentives that allow players to protect their characters and drive outcomes through manipulation of the rules in ways that have nothing to do with the interests of the fiction. In a game with explicit stake setting  players have a powerful release valve to mitigate consequences to what they would be willing to accept, run around fictional positioning, and create emotional distance between them and their PC. In particular deficient forms you might even see situations where players stop advocating for their characters and use intent to guarantee that what they really want to happen will happen regardless of the results. It also often means that we cannot have consequential success.This passage from <a href="https://playpassionately.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/the-slippery-slope-of-stakes/" target="_blank">Play Passionately</a> cuts through to some of the core issues I have with this sort of play for my interests.That being said, I don't like have a problem with it. I just find it can interfere with the fantasy of playing a character in the moment and really playing to find out what happens. There are techniques that can help mitigate this. We can be really disciplined about staying focused on character intent. We can call shenanigans when we feel players are attempting to railroad play towards the outcomes they want rather than advocating for their characters.Story Advocacy vs. Character Advocacy and the effects it has on meaningful tension, emotive play, and player experience of the fictions is probably the longest and most contentious debate within the indie community. I do not expect to solve it today. I just wanted to throw it out there.</blockquote>

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