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<blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 7085329" data-attributes="member: 48965">We are speaking to statements and posts made by you so I'm assumign we are discussing the system in your example... 4e Don't NPC's in 4e have skills?&nbsp; Attributes? Powers? Spells? Etc.? Couldn't any or all of these be leveraged to reopen the matter of the players' success?&nbsp; I mean a SC is only one possible way of resolving something in 4e there aree numerous others you seem to be ignoring or glossing over.So there is a difference even though you claimed there wasn't one earlier when I stated what I believed was one of the main differences in DM driven vs. Player driven games.&nbsp; The advisor in your Player driven game doesn't have the same type of protagonism he would in a DM driven game.&nbsp; And yes I know the meaning of setback the question trying to be sussed out is why are you claiming there's no difference when clearly in one playstyle the advisor could instigate said setback while in yours it's kind of nebulous (outside of the player's characters) who else could in the fiction.&nbsp; You didn't answer... could another NPC instigate this setback?&nbsp; Could the advisor hire or cajole other powerful NPC's to disparage and set up the PC's in the eyes of the baron?I'd be interested in where in the 4e rulebooks it talks about finality and the skill challenge as well as who can initiate setbacks to said finality if you have a source.As for combat... I don't think that's true.&nbsp; In combat enemies get knocked out, healed, brought back from the dead, turned into undead, banished to other planes, charmed into temporary allies and so on.&nbsp; So no even D&amp;D combat does not have this inherent finality that can't be changed through mechanics that can be leveraged by both DM and players... there are numerous ways a DM or player can choose to make said combat finality, well not final.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Imaro, post: 7085329, member: 48965"] We are speaking to statements and posts made by you so I'm assumign we are discussing the system in your example... 4e Don't NPC's in 4e have skills? Attributes? Powers? Spells? Etc.? Couldn't any or all of these be leveraged to reopen the matter of the players' success? I mean a SC is only one possible way of resolving something in 4e there aree numerous others you seem to be ignoring or glossing over. So there is a difference even though you claimed there wasn't one earlier when I stated what I believed was one of the main differences in DM driven vs. Player driven games. The advisor in your Player driven game doesn't have the same type of protagonism he would in a DM driven game. And yes I know the meaning of setback the question trying to be sussed out is why are you claiming there's no difference when clearly in one playstyle the advisor could instigate said setback while in yours it's kind of nebulous (outside of the player's characters) who else could in the fiction. You didn't answer... could another NPC instigate this setback? Could the advisor hire or cajole other powerful NPC's to disparage and set up the PC's in the eyes of the baron? I'd be interested in where in the 4e rulebooks it talks about finality and the skill challenge as well as who can initiate setbacks to said finality if you have a source. As for combat... I don't think that's true. In combat enemies get knocked out, healed, brought back from the dead, turned into undead, banished to other planes, charmed into temporary allies and so on. So no even D&D combat does not have this inherent finality that can't be changed through mechanics that can be leveraged by both DM and players... there are numerous ways a DM or player can choose to make said combat finality, well not final. [/QUOTE]

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