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Judgement calls vs "railroading"
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7086920" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Some thoughts on skill challenges:</p><p></p><p>(1) The 4e DMG says (on p 73):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">Set a level for the challenge and DCs for the checks involved. As a starting point, set the level of the challenge to the level of the party, and use moderate DCs for the skill checks . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">If you use easy DCs, reduce the level of the challenge by one. If you use hard DCs, increase the level of the challenge by two. You can also adjust the level of the challenge by reducing the number of failures needed to end the challenge. Cut the number of failures needed in half, and increase the level of the challenge by two. . . .</p><p></p><p>I think this is fairly confusing (and perhaps confused), but my best guess is that when it talks about "reducing" or "increasing" the level of the challenge, it is referring to the level for XP and milestone purposes, not for DC-setting purposes (which are being set <em>prior</em> to adjusting the level of the challenge). Personally I would regard this text as superseded by the Essentials guidelines on number of medium checks, hard checks and advantages.</p><p></p><p>I don't know if I have ever run any skill-challenges setting DCs according to a level other than the PCs' level, but I do know that if I have done that it's not for a long time.</p><p></p><p>(2) The 4e DMG also says (on p 74):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">For speed and simplicity, skill challenges use only flat DCs to oppose the PCs’ skill checks. Opposing them with skill check results builds too much randomness into the system.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">If you want to include opponents’ checks in your skill challenges, use their passive checks (10 + base skill check bonus). Insight and Perception are the skills most often used in this way.</p><p></p><p>I don't recall ever having done this myself.</p><p></p><p>(3) I completely agree with [MENTION=1282]darkbard[/MENTION] about how the NPCs - as crucial elements of the fiction - factor into a skill challenge. The GM uses them - their personalities, their actions, their willingness or their reticence - as part of the framing of the situation which (because it is not as the PCs want it to be) leads the players to declare checks. I think that to argue that this is not leveraging the abilities of the NPC is to miss the point - that claim assumes that a NPC's combat stat block is some sort of "true expression" of the PC, whereas clearly, given the presence of the skill challenge mechanics, it is not! (It's similar to asserting that the game is incoherent because the same NPC might be statted up as a level X solo, a level X+4/5 elite, a level X+9 standard, or a level X+17 minion.)</p><p></p><p>That's not to say that there's anything <em>wrong </em>with doing the sort of thing that Tony Vargas describes. But personally I've never felt the need for it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7086920, member: 42582"] Some thoughts on skill challenges: (1) The 4e DMG says (on p 73): [indent]Set a level for the challenge and DCs for the checks involved. As a starting point, set the level of the challenge to the level of the party, and use moderate DCs for the skill checks . . . If you use easy DCs, reduce the level of the challenge by one. If you use hard DCs, increase the level of the challenge by two. You can also adjust the level of the challenge by reducing the number of failures needed to end the challenge. Cut the number of failures needed in half, and increase the level of the challenge by two. . . .[/indent] I think this is fairly confusing (and perhaps confused), but my best guess is that when it talks about "reducing" or "increasing" the level of the challenge, it is referring to the level for XP and milestone purposes, not for DC-setting purposes (which are being set [i]prior[/i] to adjusting the level of the challenge). Personally I would regard this text as superseded by the Essentials guidelines on number of medium checks, hard checks and advantages. I don't know if I have ever run any skill-challenges setting DCs according to a level other than the PCs' level, but I do know that if I have done that it's not for a long time. (2) The 4e DMG also says (on p 74): [indent]For speed and simplicity, skill challenges use only flat DCs to oppose the PCs’ skill checks. Opposing them with skill check results builds too much randomness into the system. If you want to include opponents’ checks in your skill challenges, use their passive checks (10 + base skill check bonus). Insight and Perception are the skills most often used in this way.[/indent] I don't recall ever having done this myself. (3) I completely agree with [MENTION=1282]darkbard[/MENTION] about how the NPCs - as crucial elements of the fiction - factor into a skill challenge. The GM uses them - their personalities, their actions, their willingness or their reticence - as part of the framing of the situation which (because it is not as the PCs want it to be) leads the players to declare checks. I think that to argue that this is not leveraging the abilities of the NPC is to miss the point - that claim assumes that a NPC's combat stat block is some sort of "true expression" of the PC, whereas clearly, given the presence of the skill challenge mechanics, it is not! (It's similar to asserting that the game is incoherent because the same NPC might be statted up as a level X solo, a level X+4/5 elite, a level X+9 standard, or a level X+17 minion.) That's not to say that there's anything [I]wrong [/I]with doing the sort of thing that Tony Vargas describes. But personally I've never felt the need for it. [/QUOTE]
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