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Judgement calls vs "railroading"
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<blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 7087162" data-attributes="member: 6785785"><p>I can only comment on my interpretation of [MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION]'s original point. I've quoted it again here, pared down to the essential bit.</p><p></p><p>The distinction that I feel he is making is that in a player driven game, the fiction of the game takes shape only around the PCs based on their decisions. If the PCs are not engaged with a particular element of the fiction, then that particular element ceases to exist for all intents and purposes. The fiction only "reacts" to the PCs. The GM is never giving thought to story elements or parts of the world with which the PCs are not currently engaged.</p><p></p><p>Where as a GM driven game would have fictional elements that "exist" whether the PCs interact with them or not. Things can grow or change independent of the PCs and their actions, as well as in response to their actions. The GM is updating the game world as things move along. </p><p></p><p>So let's say that an assassin is going to try and kill the king. In the player driven game, this would only be introduced in response to player choice and as a result of PC action. In a GM driven game, this may be a plot element that the GM intends for the players to engage or not, depending on their choice. If they engage, then the outcome will depend on how the PCs handle the situation and how successful they are. But, if the PCs don't engage with this story element, then the GM determines what happens with the assassin and the king while the PCs are otherwise occupied. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">I don't see these three elements as being specifically related to a player driven approach. There's no reason that the most railroady of adventure paths cannot meet each of these elements.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">I think examples of elements specifically tied to a player driven approach would be more along the lines of (i)players determine the events of play, or something like that. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p></p><p>I think this is mostly right, to a point. The GM may have authored some details to be secret, but many may not need to be. Roland is the king of the realm, for instance. And the players may also contribute to authorship of the gameworld; it need not be the GM doing it all on his own. Where I think you begin to go wrong is in stating that the GM can determine outright PC failure based solely on unknown elements created as part of the GM's secret history. I do think this is a possibility, but I don't expect that many would cite that as a positive element of the approach. </p><p></p><p>And I think the last bit about not needing to have regard for the players' concerns and interests...I don't really see that as being the case in most games, regardless of the approach used. In my experoence, there's at the very least a discussion at the start of a game about what it will be about, what system, what setting, and so forth. And I know for my game, such discussions are ongoing throughout, and I get that vibe from many othwr folks here on the board.</p><p></p><p>My take away from many of your comments throughout the thread, especially whenever you try to deacribe a more GM driven style, is that you see the GM as someone who if left to his own devoces will run amok. And so you prefer for there to be specific structured rules in place for the GM to follow. </p><p></p><p>Because I absolutely cannot see why your description of a Player Driven game above cannot also apply to a GM Driven game, and vice versa. To me they read more like a deacription of a Good GM and a Bad GM.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hawkeyefan, post: 7087162, member: 6785785"] I can only comment on my interpretation of [MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION]'s original point. I've quoted it again here, pared down to the essential bit. The distinction that I feel he is making is that in a player driven game, the fiction of the game takes shape only around the PCs based on their decisions. If the PCs are not engaged with a particular element of the fiction, then that particular element ceases to exist for all intents and purposes. The fiction only "reacts" to the PCs. The GM is never giving thought to story elements or parts of the world with which the PCs are not currently engaged. Where as a GM driven game would have fictional elements that "exist" whether the PCs interact with them or not. Things can grow or change independent of the PCs and their actions, as well as in response to their actions. The GM is updating the game world as things move along. So let's say that an assassin is going to try and kill the king. In the player driven game, this would only be introduced in response to player choice and as a result of PC action. In a GM driven game, this may be a plot element that the GM intends for the players to engage or not, depending on their choice. If they engage, then the outcome will depend on how the PCs handle the situation and how successful they are. But, if the PCs don't engage with this story element, then the GM determines what happens with the assassin and the king while the PCs are otherwise occupied. [indent] I don't see these three elements as being specifically related to a player driven approach. There's no reason that the most railroady of adventure paths cannot meet each of these elements. I think examples of elements specifically tied to a player driven approach would be more along the lines of (i)players determine the events of play, or something like that. [/indent] I think this is mostly right, to a point. The GM may have authored some details to be secret, but many may not need to be. Roland is the king of the realm, for instance. And the players may also contribute to authorship of the gameworld; it need not be the GM doing it all on his own. Where I think you begin to go wrong is in stating that the GM can determine outright PC failure based solely on unknown elements created as part of the GM's secret history. I do think this is a possibility, but I don't expect that many would cite that as a positive element of the approach. And I think the last bit about not needing to have regard for the players' concerns and interests...I don't really see that as being the case in most games, regardless of the approach used. In my experoence, there's at the very least a discussion at the start of a game about what it will be about, what system, what setting, and so forth. And I know for my game, such discussions are ongoing throughout, and I get that vibe from many othwr folks here on the board. My take away from many of your comments throughout the thread, especially whenever you try to deacribe a more GM driven style, is that you see the GM as someone who if left to his own devoces will run amok. And so you prefer for there to be specific structured rules in place for the GM to follow. Because I absolutely cannot see why your description of a Player Driven game above cannot also apply to a GM Driven game, and vice versa. To me they read more like a deacription of a Good GM and a Bad GM. [/QUOTE]
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