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Judgement calls vs "railroading"
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7088339" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>OK. But it's not the case that either result works for me. And when you say "I could just as easily" have used the second result, that's not actually true. Doing that would have been more-or-less breaking the rules of the game.</p><p></p><p>No. I'm suggesting that <em>no one</em> has that information until it emerges out of play - probably as the result of an interplay between framing (that is the most natural way to first present the message to Obi-Wan) and failed check (R2D2 running off would be a natural result of a failed repair check).</p><p></p><p><a href="https://forum.rpg.net/archive/index.php/t-736425.html" target="_blank">Here</a> is an account of the first bit of action in the OP game:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">I started things in the Hardby market: Jobe was looking at the wares of a peddler of trinkets and souvenirs, to see if there was anything there that might be magical or useful for enchanting for the anticipated confrontation with his brother. Given that the brother is possessed by a demon, he was looking for something angelic. The peddler pointed out an angel feather that he had for sale, brought to him from the Bright Desert. Jobe (who has, as another instinct, to always use Second Sight), used Aura Reading to study the feather for magical traits. The roll was a failure, and so he noticed that it was Resistant to Fire (potentially useful in confronting a Balrog) but also cursed. (Ancient History was involved somehow here too, maybe as a FoRK into Aura Reading (? I can't really remember), establishing something about an ancient battle between angels and demons in the desert.)</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">My memory of the precise sequence of events is hazy, but in the context the peddler was able to insist on proceeding with the sale, demanding 3 drachmas (Ob 1 resource check). As Jobe started haggling a strange woman (Halika) approached him and offered to help him if he would buy her lunch. Between the two of them, the haggling roll was still a failure, and also the subsequent Resources check: so Jobe got his feather but spent his last 3 drachmas, and was taxed down to Resources 0. They did get some more information about the feather from the peddler, however - he bought it from a wild-eyed man with dishevelled beard and hair, who said that it had come from one of the tombs in the Bright Desert.</p><p></p><p>So there we have two "secrets" revealed: the feather is cursed; and there was an ancient battle in the Bright Desert between angels and demons.</p><p></p><p>The first secret was established as the result of a failed check. The second was established by the player, who had the opportunity to do so because I had framed his PC into a situation in which an angel feather reputedly from the Bright Desert was the focus of attention. (Note how that is quite different from a player just sitting up at the table and, with no apparent context to make sense of it, declaring "There was an ancient battle in the desert between angels and demons". I think this is related to [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION]'s ideas about following the fiction, though I'm not sure that it's identical.)</p><p></p><p>So at the start of the session no one knew anything about angel feathers, curses and ancient battles in the Bright Desert. But after what was probably 15 to 30 minutes of play, this stuff had been established. Through play.</p><p></p><p>No one in this thread has said that any particular technique is a universal requirement for good play or good game design.</p><p></p><p>From the OP:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p></p><p>No universal claims there. I think quite the opposite.</p><p></p><p>I have ideas for things that I don't tell the players. Secret plans. For instance, I didn't tell the players I had written up a wastrel renegard elf. I just brought that character into play. Likewise the dark naga. </p><p></p><p>That's not the same thing as secret backstory. Plans to author something don't themselves establish any fiction. The fiction is established via framing, and narration of consequences.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7088339, member: 42582"] OK. But it's not the case that either result works for me. And when you say "I could just as easily" have used the second result, that's not actually true. Doing that would have been more-or-less breaking the rules of the game. No. I'm suggesting that [I]no one[/I] has that information until it emerges out of play - probably as the result of an interplay between framing (that is the most natural way to first present the message to Obi-Wan) and failed check (R2D2 running off would be a natural result of a failed repair check). [url=https://forum.rpg.net/archive/index.php/t-736425.html]Here[/url] is an account of the first bit of action in the OP game: [indent]I started things in the Hardby market: Jobe was looking at the wares of a peddler of trinkets and souvenirs, to see if there was anything there that might be magical or useful for enchanting for the anticipated confrontation with his brother. Given that the brother is possessed by a demon, he was looking for something angelic. The peddler pointed out an angel feather that he had for sale, brought to him from the Bright Desert. Jobe (who has, as another instinct, to always use Second Sight), used Aura Reading to study the feather for magical traits. The roll was a failure, and so he noticed that it was Resistant to Fire (potentially useful in confronting a Balrog) but also cursed. (Ancient History was involved somehow here too, maybe as a FoRK into Aura Reading (? I can't really remember), establishing something about an ancient battle between angels and demons in the desert.) My memory of the precise sequence of events is hazy, but in the context the peddler was able to insist on proceeding with the sale, demanding 3 drachmas (Ob 1 resource check). As Jobe started haggling a strange woman (Halika) approached him and offered to help him if he would buy her lunch. Between the two of them, the haggling roll was still a failure, and also the subsequent Resources check: so Jobe got his feather but spent his last 3 drachmas, and was taxed down to Resources 0. They did get some more information about the feather from the peddler, however - he bought it from a wild-eyed man with dishevelled beard and hair, who said that it had come from one of the tombs in the Bright Desert.[/indent] So there we have two "secrets" revealed: the feather is cursed; and there was an ancient battle in the Bright Desert between angels and demons. The first secret was established as the result of a failed check. The second was established by the player, who had the opportunity to do so because I had framed his PC into a situation in which an angel feather reputedly from the Bright Desert was the focus of attention. (Note how that is quite different from a player just sitting up at the table and, with no apparent context to make sense of it, declaring "There was an ancient battle in the desert between angels and demons". I think this is related to [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION]'s ideas about following the fiction, though I'm not sure that it's identical.) So at the start of the session no one knew anything about angel feathers, curses and ancient battles in the Bright Desert. But after what was probably 15 to 30 minutes of play, this stuff had been established. Through play. No one in this thread has said that any particular technique is a universal requirement for good play or good game design. From the OP: [indent][/indent] No universal claims there. I think quite the opposite. I have ideas for things that I don't tell the players. Secret plans. For instance, I didn't tell the players I had written up a wastrel renegard elf. I just brought that character into play. Likewise the dark naga. That's not the same thing as secret backstory. Plans to author something don't themselves establish any fiction. The fiction is established via framing, and narration of consequences. [/QUOTE]
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