Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Judgement calls vs "railroading"
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7089492" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>And that's one of the places that loses me in terms of BW/DW, that an ambiguous result is somehow breaking the rules of the game. </p><p></p><p>Or to put it a different way, it's an example of a game/rule that puts the game/rules ahead of the fiction. Despite the fact that the game is supposed to put the fiction first.</p></blockquote><p>How is a rule being put ahead of the fiction?</p><p></p><p>Which is to say, why is the fiction of your second option superior to the first, or true to the established fiction.</p><p></p><p>And from the point of RPGing, what benefit do you think flows from the players not understanding the motivations of hostile NPCs? Upthread, [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION] called this "find the plot" RPGing. And [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] referred, in this sort of case, to the players taking steps to find out what explains the NPC's behaviour. What makes this superior to the players knowing the NPC's motivation?</p><p></p><p>There is no answering these question in the abstract. Everything depends on what the players, through build and play of their PCs, have signalled as salient matters to engage with.</p><p></p><p>It also depends on the context of narration. Are these narrations of failed action resolution? Or mechanically un-mediated GM responses to action declarations? (Which is what I have referred to as "failure consequent on application of GM secret backstory.)</p><p></p><p>In short, and as I've posted multiple times upthread, simply from a recount of some fictional episoe we can't tell how it took place at the RPG table.</p><p></p><p>No.</p><p></p><p>The structure of (3) above is very similar to the following: The PCs look for a mace in a tower, but can't find it. In fact, this is because it has been taken from the tower by the renegade elf who has been stalking them ever since they entered the Abor-Alz from the Bright Desert. Which occurred in the OP game.</p><p></p><p>Issues of GMing technique aren't about <em>what stories can be told</em> They're about <em>how stories are authored by a group of people playing a RPG together</em>.</p><p></p><p>In the case of the mace and the renegade elf: (i) the declaration that there is no mace (which is the structural analogue of being rebuffed by the King's court) is consequent on a failed check; (ii) the revelation that the mace is in the hands of the elf (which is the structural analogue of the reality being that the doppelgangers have taken over the court) is part of the framing of a subsequent encounter, where the elf attacks the PCs wielding the mace.</p><p></p><p>The boxed text would generally be part of framing a situation, yes.</p><p></p><p>That sounds like narration of consequences. If a player says (in character) "I look behind the tapestry" that is an action declaration. If the GM says "You see a blank wall" that is a narration of consequence by way of "saying 'yes'" - ie no check is called for for the players' action to succeed - and also framing (<em>you're faced by a blank wall - what do you do?</em>).</p><p></p><p>Who can tell, without knowing how it was established via the processes of play?</p><p></p><p>In the OP game, I fairly recently established - by way of framing - that the mage PC and his demon-possessed brother are half-brothers: the father of the brother is the abbot who arrived in Hardby to officiate at the wedding of the Gynarch and Jabal, who - decades earlier - was a young priest at the court where the brothers' mother lived.</p><p></p><p>That was consistent with the established fiction and, at the moment of play, seemed appropriate - the PC was at the docks, hoping to meet a friendly cleric in the abbot's entourage who could cure his mummy rot, and both (i) saw the abbot come off the boat, and (ii) saw his brother across the crowd, watching the abbot's arrival with a mixture of longing (filial affection) and hatred (demonic possession).</p><p></p><p>Through back-and-forth with the player about what he (in character) could see, and what he (in character) could recall of his childhood and family history, the backstory just described was established. It heightened the stakes of the scene, and led to the player rewriting a Belief, to read "Now that I've seen my brother, I pity him".</p><p></p><p>That's not identical to the Star Wars plotline, but it's comparable.</p><p></p><p>To reiterate: player-driven RPGing techniques aren't focused on <em>content</em>. The concern is with the <em>process</em> of establishing that fiction.</p><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7089492, member: 42582"] And that's one of the places that loses me in terms of BW/DW, that an ambiguous result is somehow breaking the rules of the game. Or to put it a different way, it's an example of a game/rule that puts the game/rules ahead of the fiction. Despite the fact that the game is supposed to put the fiction first.[/quote]How is a rule being put ahead of the fiction? Which is to say, why is the fiction of your second option superior to the first, or true to the established fiction. And from the point of RPGing, what benefit do you think flows from the players not understanding the motivations of hostile NPCs? Upthread, [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION] called this "find the plot" RPGing. And [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] referred, in this sort of case, to the players taking steps to find out what explains the NPC's behaviour. What makes this superior to the players knowing the NPC's motivation? There is no answering these question in the abstract. Everything depends on what the players, through build and play of their PCs, have signalled as salient matters to engage with. It also depends on the context of narration. Are these narrations of failed action resolution? Or mechanically un-mediated GM responses to action declarations? (Which is what I have referred to as "failure consequent on application of GM secret backstory.) In short, and as I've posted multiple times upthread, simply from a recount of some fictional episoe we can't tell how it took place at the RPG table. No. The structure of (3) above is very similar to the following: The PCs look for a mace in a tower, but can't find it. In fact, this is because it has been taken from the tower by the renegade elf who has been stalking them ever since they entered the Abor-Alz from the Bright Desert. Which occurred in the OP game. Issues of GMing technique aren't about [I]what stories can be told[/I] They're about [I]how stories are authored by a group of people playing a RPG together[/I]. In the case of the mace and the renegade elf: (i) the declaration that there is no mace (which is the structural analogue of being rebuffed by the King's court) is consequent on a failed check; (ii) the revelation that the mace is in the hands of the elf (which is the structural analogue of the reality being that the doppelgangers have taken over the court) is part of the framing of a subsequent encounter, where the elf attacks the PCs wielding the mace. The boxed text would generally be part of framing a situation, yes. That sounds like narration of consequences. If a player says (in character) "I look behind the tapestry" that is an action declaration. If the GM says "You see a blank wall" that is a narration of consequence by way of "saying 'yes'" - ie no check is called for for the players' action to succeed - and also framing ([I]you're faced by a blank wall - what do you do?[/I]). Who can tell, without knowing how it was established via the processes of play? In the OP game, I fairly recently established - by way of framing - that the mage PC and his demon-possessed brother are half-brothers: the father of the brother is the abbot who arrived in Hardby to officiate at the wedding of the Gynarch and Jabal, who - decades earlier - was a young priest at the court where the brothers' mother lived. That was consistent with the established fiction and, at the moment of play, seemed appropriate - the PC was at the docks, hoping to meet a friendly cleric in the abbot's entourage who could cure his mummy rot, and both (i) saw the abbot come off the boat, and (ii) saw his brother across the crowd, watching the abbot's arrival with a mixture of longing (filial affection) and hatred (demonic possession). Through back-and-forth with the player about what he (in character) could see, and what he (in character) could recall of his childhood and family history, the backstory just described was established. It heightened the stakes of the scene, and led to the player rewriting a Belief, to read "Now that I've seen my brother, I pity him". That's not identical to the Star Wars plotline, but it's comparable. To reiterate: player-driven RPGing techniques aren't focused on [I]content[/I]. The concern is with the [I]process[/I] of establishing that fiction. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Judgement calls vs "railroading"
Top