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Judgement calls vs "railroading"
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<blockquote data-quote="Campbell" data-source="post: 7090031" data-attributes="member: 16586"><p>[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION]</p><p></p><p>When I address mainstream games I am speaking in terms of a particular cultural context. I am specifically speaking of the dominant culture within our greater community. I choose not to frame it in terms of the traditional culture because it does not represent the roots of the game (the war gaming culture), but instead a transformation of what these games were assumed to be about. It also nicely dovetails into the relationship between indie and mainstream movements in other media. That includes elements like authenticity vs. mass appeal, the role of social cohesion in the culture, and openness to experience vs. assumed tropes and structures. I am not claiming cultural superiority here. I am merely trying to explain my perspective.</p><p></p><p>I was also not saying that anyone has to find any particular game fun. I was responding to an argument [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] made up thread where he claimed indie gamers had a narrow specific definition of fun and were seeking some refined perfect thing. I was trying to explain what I think the appeal of these games are in the cultural context they were born out of rather than what those who are not part of the culture assume their appeal must be. I want a more varied and dynamic experience, not less of one. I want more creative risks. I want more collaboration and less individual design.</p><p></p><p>When it comes to authenticity I was speaking to a specific cultural and aesthetic value that I hold that I believe is less important in the mainstream culture than things like social cohesion, protecting the experience from perceived negative outcomes, getting exactly what you want out of play, and fidelity to individual creative vision of characters and settings. Things like character and story arcs, detailed world building built on a GM's specific creative vision, adherence to character concept, overt manipulation of mechanics and fiction, story advocacy over character advocacy, over processing of play through mechanics or GM design in the moment, and avoidance of creative risks lead to an experience that feels less organic and authentic to me.</p><p></p><p>Within this thread there have been innumerable occasions where posters have claimed that player perception is what matters, not what actually happens at the table. They have disputed a need for transparency, organic storytelling, authentic communication, and authentic experiences. I have stated my preferences for these things in the context of where and how GM judgment calls can be used to enhance play as long as they are made in a disciplined way.</p><p></p><p>Is it your contention that I should not hold a distinction between these things?</p><p>Is it your contention that I value authenticity too much?</p><p>Is it your contention that the mainstream culture values authenticity <strong>just as much</strong> as I do?</p><p>Is it your contention that I should not speak on these distinctions?</p><p>Is it your contention that I should take on the values of the dominant culture in the interests of unity?</p><p>Do you have a less contentious framing that I should use that still gets to the heart of my concerns?</p><p></p><p>I am not trying to start a fight here. I do not want to have a debate over what set of approaches are strictly better. I also do not think we should avoid discussion of our differences. If unity means conformity to the values of the dominant culture I have little interest in it. If unity means celebrating the diversity of perspectives, approaches, and games within the hobby while discussing our differences with respect for each other I am all for it. It might get contentious at times and sometimes the way we frame things might get overly aggressive and fail to adequately reflect the situation. When we do this we should be called on our <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />. I have tried to do this throughout my involvement in this thread.</p><p></p><p>This thread has resulted in some of the best discussions I have had on this site in a long time, specifically because we have been able to speak to the distinctions between the ways we prefer to play and run role playing games. I think it is a good thing when our cultures engage in a meeting of the minds, even when it is difficult, especially when it is difficult. It does no one any good to only discuss things with those who agree with them. At the very least we gain a better understanding of each other.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Campbell, post: 7090031, member: 16586"] [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] When I address mainstream games I am speaking in terms of a particular cultural context. I am specifically speaking of the dominant culture within our greater community. I choose not to frame it in terms of the traditional culture because it does not represent the roots of the game (the war gaming culture), but instead a transformation of what these games were assumed to be about. It also nicely dovetails into the relationship between indie and mainstream movements in other media. That includes elements like authenticity vs. mass appeal, the role of social cohesion in the culture, and openness to experience vs. assumed tropes and structures. I am not claiming cultural superiority here. I am merely trying to explain my perspective. I was also not saying that anyone has to find any particular game fun. I was responding to an argument [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] made up thread where he claimed indie gamers had a narrow specific definition of fun and were seeking some refined perfect thing. I was trying to explain what I think the appeal of these games are in the cultural context they were born out of rather than what those who are not part of the culture assume their appeal must be. I want a more varied and dynamic experience, not less of one. I want more creative risks. I want more collaboration and less individual design. When it comes to authenticity I was speaking to a specific cultural and aesthetic value that I hold that I believe is less important in the mainstream culture than things like social cohesion, protecting the experience from perceived negative outcomes, getting exactly what you want out of play, and fidelity to individual creative vision of characters and settings. Things like character and story arcs, detailed world building built on a GM's specific creative vision, adherence to character concept, overt manipulation of mechanics and fiction, story advocacy over character advocacy, over processing of play through mechanics or GM design in the moment, and avoidance of creative risks lead to an experience that feels less organic and authentic to me. Within this thread there have been innumerable occasions where posters have claimed that player perception is what matters, not what actually happens at the table. They have disputed a need for transparency, organic storytelling, authentic communication, and authentic experiences. I have stated my preferences for these things in the context of where and how GM judgment calls can be used to enhance play as long as they are made in a disciplined way. Is it your contention that I should not hold a distinction between these things? Is it your contention that I value authenticity too much? Is it your contention that the mainstream culture values authenticity [B]just as much[/B] as I do? Is it your contention that I should not speak on these distinctions? Is it your contention that I should take on the values of the dominant culture in the interests of unity? Do you have a less contentious framing that I should use that still gets to the heart of my concerns? I am not trying to start a fight here. I do not want to have a debate over what set of approaches are strictly better. I also do not think we should avoid discussion of our differences. If unity means conformity to the values of the dominant culture I have little interest in it. If unity means celebrating the diversity of perspectives, approaches, and games within the hobby while discussing our differences with respect for each other I am all for it. It might get contentious at times and sometimes the way we frame things might get overly aggressive and fail to adequately reflect the situation. When we do this we should be called on our :):):):). I have tried to do this throughout my involvement in this thread. This thread has resulted in some of the best discussions I have had on this site in a long time, specifically because we have been able to speak to the distinctions between the ways we prefer to play and run role playing games. I think it is a good thing when our cultures engage in a meeting of the minds, even when it is difficult, especially when it is difficult. It does no one any good to only discuss things with those who agree with them. At the very least we gain a better understanding of each other. [/QUOTE]
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