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Judgement calls vs "railroading"
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<blockquote data-quote="Campbell" data-source="post: 7090665" data-attributes="member: 16586"><p>When it comes down to playing with the right people indie games are no more rigorous than any highly social game. First and foremost they require a measure of empathy, compassion and understanding. Secondly they require an interest in what the other players have to say and a desire to actively contribute to the play space in a mostly collaborative way, but there can also be a measure of competition without there being conflict. We have social interactions all the time without meaningful conflicts of interest. These are games best played among friends and people you trust. They can bring you closer together and don't necessarily have to be like deep man. Dungeon World is generally not that deep. Apocalypse World can be deep or shallow.</p><p></p><p>There are multiple mainstream games I would not play with just anybody.</p><p></p><p>I would not play <strong>Poker</strong> with just anybody.</p><p>I would not play <strong>Cards Against Humanity</strong> with just anybody.</p><p>I would not play <strong>Diplomacy</strong> with just anyone.</p><p>I would not play <strong>Basketball</strong> with just anyone.</p><p>I would not play <strong>Game of Thrones</strong> with just anyone.</p><p>I would not raid in <strong>World of Warcraft</strong> with just anyone.</p><p>I would not play <strong>Overwatch</strong> with just anyone.</p><p></p><p>Despite their best efforts to protect the experience I would not play most mainstream role playing games with just anyone. I think efforts to resolve player conflicts of interest through game design largely fail to do so and has the social risk of possibly leading to toxic environments because without the weight of meaningful social expectations play can sometimes become degenerative. Because I am not allowed to judge you in light of social expectations you can do anything that is not actively quashed by the GM. Because there is no social transparency it becomes socially difficult to speak up when my desires and unspoken expectations are not being met.</p><p></p><p>I am not saying it <strong>will</strong> lead to degenerative play - only that it is possible. I have experienced it sometimes and not experienced it other times. I have experienced it far more frequently in video games that attempt to mitigate social risks. I would much rather raid in a high pressure environment with people I trust and value than play casual content with those I do not.</p><p></p><p> [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION], I am not a fan of how aggressively you are framing your arguments. I have made it clear I am only interested in speaking to my own experiences. I feel like I have approached this discussion with openness and empathy. If you feel I have not done so please let me know. However, I would appreciate it if you would approach my analysis with the same sort of charity I have tried to approach other posters with in this thread. If you will not I do not feel like I can continue to directly address your posts.</p><p></p><p>I also am no fan of what feels like attempts to shame posters who do not share your mainstream values. I hope I am wrong in my reading of this. The continued broad appeals to popularity, social cohesion, and traditional authority structures does not seem like an attempt to reach understanding or celebrate diversity. It feels like you are trying to tell me what I should value and not engaging with me from the perspective of what I do value. I guess I am asking what your motivation is here.</p><p></p><p>Do you want me and others like me to not take part in the hobby?</p><p>Do you want us to share your values?</p><p>Is sharing the values of the dominant culture a requirement for participation?</p><p>Should I not speak up for my own desires and interests?</p><p>Should we go back to our own respective corners and only discuss things with people who share our cultural values?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Campbell, post: 7090665, member: 16586"] When it comes down to playing with the right people indie games are no more rigorous than any highly social game. First and foremost they require a measure of empathy, compassion and understanding. Secondly they require an interest in what the other players have to say and a desire to actively contribute to the play space in a mostly collaborative way, but there can also be a measure of competition without there being conflict. We have social interactions all the time without meaningful conflicts of interest. These are games best played among friends and people you trust. They can bring you closer together and don't necessarily have to be like deep man. Dungeon World is generally not that deep. Apocalypse World can be deep or shallow. There are multiple mainstream games I would not play with just anybody. I would not play [B]Poker[/B] with just anybody. I would not play [B]Cards Against Humanity[/B] with just anybody. I would not play [B]Diplomacy[/B] with just anyone. I would not play [B]Basketball[/B] with just anyone. I would not play [B]Game of Thrones[/B] with just anyone. I would not raid in [B]World of Warcraft[/B] with just anyone. I would not play [B]Overwatch[/B] with just anyone. Despite their best efforts to protect the experience I would not play most mainstream role playing games with just anyone. I think efforts to resolve player conflicts of interest through game design largely fail to do so and has the social risk of possibly leading to toxic environments because without the weight of meaningful social expectations play can sometimes become degenerative. Because I am not allowed to judge you in light of social expectations you can do anything that is not actively quashed by the GM. Because there is no social transparency it becomes socially difficult to speak up when my desires and unspoken expectations are not being met. I am not saying it [B]will[/B] lead to degenerative play - only that it is possible. I have experienced it sometimes and not experienced it other times. I have experienced it far more frequently in video games that attempt to mitigate social risks. I would much rather raid in a high pressure environment with people I trust and value than play casual content with those I do not. [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION], I am not a fan of how aggressively you are framing your arguments. I have made it clear I am only interested in speaking to my own experiences. I feel like I have approached this discussion with openness and empathy. If you feel I have not done so please let me know. However, I would appreciate it if you would approach my analysis with the same sort of charity I have tried to approach other posters with in this thread. If you will not I do not feel like I can continue to directly address your posts. I also am no fan of what feels like attempts to shame posters who do not share your mainstream values. I hope I am wrong in my reading of this. The continued broad appeals to popularity, social cohesion, and traditional authority structures does not seem like an attempt to reach understanding or celebrate diversity. It feels like you are trying to tell me what I should value and not engaging with me from the perspective of what I do value. I guess I am asking what your motivation is here. Do you want me and others like me to not take part in the hobby? Do you want us to share your values? Is sharing the values of the dominant culture a requirement for participation? Should I not speak up for my own desires and interests? Should we go back to our own respective corners and only discuss things with people who share our cultural values? [/QUOTE]
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