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Judgement calls vs "railroading"
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7092575" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Well, I don't think so. What's the illusion being perpetrated on the players?</p><p></p><p>It's not as if some fate or future for the skulker has already been settled, and - as GM - I am manipulating outcomes of action resolution, behind-the-scenes fiction, etc, to bring that about. Quite the opposite!</p><p></p><p>Personally I can't see any difference: the player has an idea that there might be a secret door there, and the GM "thwarts" it.</p><p></p><p>That's not to say that there's not a difference that is salient to you. But I will have to leave it to you to articulate that. From my point of view, the examples don't differ in terms of some being bad thwartings and others benign narrations of the gameworld. I see the GM narrating the absence of a secret door (because the notes say there isn't one there), narrating the court or the baron rebuffing the PCs (because the notes record facts about an assassination, or a kidnapping, that is as-yet unknown to the PCs) or narrating the unavailability of silk (because the notes say the country it is imported from is in turmoil) as all on a par, as far as GMing techniques are concerned.</p><p></p><p>All I can really do is reiterate that a desire to play whatever it is the GM is offering up isn't an interest or concern of the sort I was referring to.</p><p></p><p>If I ask, "What film would you like to see?" and you answer "I don't care - whatever's showing", then I just don't think there's any interesting sense in which, in choosing a film for us to see, I have taken your desires into account in refining the selection. Rather, you didn't have any desires that needed to be taken into account.</p><p></p><p>The same thing is applying, mutatis mutandis, in this case.</p><p></p><p>Suppose it was <em>the player</em> who decides what the shameful thing was, works up some details on the mercenary company, etc. And then you, as GM, are expected to make that a focus of the game. For me, using the terminology I've been using, that's probably something I would think of as a player-driven rather than a GM-driven game.</p><p></p><p>Conversely, suppose the player comes up with the idea of a shameful past, but leaves it for the GM to work out the details, and/or to choose whether and how to really incorporate it into the game: then I would think of it as a GM-driven rather than a player-driven game.</p><p></p><p>What you describe sounds somewhat intermediate between those two cases, and from what you've said I'm not going to attempt such an invidious task as classification on a think evidence base when I wasn't there! But I hope the two cases I've outlined give you some sense of what I think the salient differences are.</p><p></p><p>Another way to try and get at the same point: I find the idea of "side quests" vs the "main plot" quite inimical. I see the idea of "side quests" as the GM somehow incorporating or at least giving a substantive tip of the hat to a player's character-based motivations/desires; but in so far as they contrast with the "main plot", they are secondary, and so - if more than <em>mere</em> tips of the hat - still somewhere in that general territory. Whereas, if the GM is framing every situation having regard to these matters, then the "side quest" vs "main plot" distinction completely breaks down.</p><p></p><p>And yet another way: if, in the adventure, I could replace the Princess to be rescued with Blackrazor to be recovered, but all the rest of the scenario (the obstacles, the opponents, the fetch quests, etc) could remain unchanged, then it is not an example of what I'm talking about. Because even if the McGuffin (and in this case it really is a McGuffin) is sensitive to players' expressed concerns/interests/PC motivations, the nuts-and-bolts of the scenario are not.</p><p></p><p>I'm not saying your game does (or doesn't) exemplify any of these features. I don't know. They're just different ways to try to convey what I'm getting at, and what I see the salient contrasts to be.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7092575, member: 42582"] Well, I don't think so. What's the illusion being perpetrated on the players? It's not as if some fate or future for the skulker has already been settled, and - as GM - I am manipulating outcomes of action resolution, behind-the-scenes fiction, etc, to bring that about. Quite the opposite! Personally I can't see any difference: the player has an idea that there might be a secret door there, and the GM "thwarts" it. That's not to say that there's not a difference that is salient to you. But I will have to leave it to you to articulate that. From my point of view, the examples don't differ in terms of some being bad thwartings and others benign narrations of the gameworld. I see the GM narrating the absence of a secret door (because the notes say there isn't one there), narrating the court or the baron rebuffing the PCs (because the notes record facts about an assassination, or a kidnapping, that is as-yet unknown to the PCs) or narrating the unavailability of silk (because the notes say the country it is imported from is in turmoil) as all on a par, as far as GMing techniques are concerned. All I can really do is reiterate that a desire to play whatever it is the GM is offering up isn't an interest or concern of the sort I was referring to. If I ask, "What film would you like to see?" and you answer "I don't care - whatever's showing", then I just don't think there's any interesting sense in which, in choosing a film for us to see, I have taken your desires into account in refining the selection. Rather, you didn't have any desires that needed to be taken into account. The same thing is applying, mutatis mutandis, in this case. Suppose it was [I]the player[/i] who decides what the shameful thing was, works up some details on the mercenary company, etc. And then you, as GM, are expected to make that a focus of the game. For me, using the terminology I've been using, that's probably something I would think of as a player-driven rather than a GM-driven game. Conversely, suppose the player comes up with the idea of a shameful past, but leaves it for the GM to work out the details, and/or to choose whether and how to really incorporate it into the game: then I would think of it as a GM-driven rather than a player-driven game. What you describe sounds somewhat intermediate between those two cases, and from what you've said I'm not going to attempt such an invidious task as classification on a think evidence base when I wasn't there! But I hope the two cases I've outlined give you some sense of what I think the salient differences are. Another way to try and get at the same point: I find the idea of "side quests" vs the "main plot" quite inimical. I see the idea of "side quests" as the GM somehow incorporating or at least giving a substantive tip of the hat to a player's character-based motivations/desires; but in so far as they contrast with the "main plot", they are secondary, and so - if more than [I]mere[/I] tips of the hat - still somewhere in that general territory. Whereas, if the GM is framing every situation having regard to these matters, then the "side quest" vs "main plot" distinction completely breaks down. And yet another way: if, in the adventure, I could replace the Princess to be rescued with Blackrazor to be recovered, but all the rest of the scenario (the obstacles, the opponents, the fetch quests, etc) could remain unchanged, then it is not an example of what I'm talking about. Because even if the McGuffin (and in this case it really is a McGuffin) is sensitive to players' expressed concerns/interests/PC motivations, the nuts-and-bolts of the scenario are not. I'm not saying your game does (or doesn't) exemplify any of these features. I don't know. They're just different ways to try to convey what I'm getting at, and what I see the salient contrasts to be. [/QUOTE]
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