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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7092688" data-attributes="member: 6778044">I just don't thing it has to be any level of adversarialism. I was exaggerating to make a point. All I'm saying is that as a DM, if the players tell me they are doing something, and I don't know why they are doing it, I don't need to know, nor would I usually ask why. I'll see how it plays out and it may become obvious over time.I'm not sure I can remember a time that the players actually hid something from me. It's just that they don't always explain why they're doing something. I might think I know the reason, only to find out later it's different.And that's where we differ. I don't view my job as DM to frame the haggling check for them. The framing takes care of itself. In D&D we don't have Resources checks, of course, but I don't even see a check as such necessary. If they are in a village of 250, then it's something too rare to find there. If they're in Waterdeep, you have plenty of choices. We probably wouldn't play out the haggling itself anyway, we're not the acting types. I might call for a check, but most of the time it seems like you're just rolling dice. So I usually compare passive scores, consider any circumstances that might give an advantage, and come back with a discounted price.It would generally play out along the lines of:I want to get some Calishite silk, can I find any here?Sure, there are plenty of merchants in Waterdeep eager to sell their wares. Do you have any skills or history with regard to purchasing silks that would give you an idea of what's good quality or price?Yes, when I was working as as merchant in Athkatla, we often traded in fine Calishite silks.OK, makes sense. You find that some of the "Calishite" silk is bogus (based on his Wisdom (Insight) modified by his past expertise), but for the legitimate goods, the price is higher than you'd expect, even up here in Waterdeep.Can I haggle for a better price? Of course, the best you've been able to manage is 18% so far, do you want to continue to pressure, or go with that price. None of the others are willing to come down more than 5%, unusual from your experience.Hmmm, I wonder why that is? (His Charisma (Persuasion) score is very high due to expertise, and his background as a merchant from Athkatla also probably tips him off). Maybe there's something going on - is anybody giving a reason why the prices are so high?Inquiring, you find that the supply is very limited, due to the threat of a civil war in Calimshan right now. They will sell there wares without any problem at this price, and will likely be raising it.So that one selling cheap is really unusual. I'll buy a bolt from him. I'd like for us to keep an eye on him, though, and see if there's another reason why his prices are so good. I wonder if the silk is stolen. In the meantime, I'll make a special robe for the (NPC) who ruined his. Since it will take me some time to do that, the others can keep watch on the merchant. If I make it out of rare Calishite silk with a special pattern worked into it, can the wizard use that to help scry on them?Yes - if you keep some of the same cloth, and the wizard studies the pattern (or perhaps draws it for you), then it will be easy for her to target the (NPC) with her spells.While you're busy making the robe (no check is needed, I'm using passive skills again, he's a seamstress/tailor as well), the others are watching the merchant. There's one man in particular that visits, in plain brown leather armor, no cloak, muscular, the merchant gives him what looks like a coin purse, but looks nervous while doing so, checking around before getting it from behind the counter.PCs - we'll see if we can follow him, see where he's going...At which point we go back to "encounter level" detail, following the thug to several other merchants before heading to a warehouse in the Dock Ward. The PCs may investigate further, finding a bandit/smuggling ring that are taking advantage of the problems in Calimshan by waylaying other merchants, stealing their goods, then bringing them north to Waterdeep to undercut the other merchants. The plot is funded by a somewhat down-on-their-luck noble family that is trying to drive one of their rivals out of their trade territory. Their tactics with the local merchants they are using to sell the wares (who don't know who is providing the goods), is tough. They don't want them asking questions, and they don't want to risk their rivals from making the connection to them.There's a good chance something like a civil war in far away Calimshan comes from a published source, rather than me. Unless I have a need to concern myself with Calimshan in the current thrust of the campaign. If they choose not to follow the thug, or go any further with investigating the merchant, they may simply return to him to purchase more goods, since his prices are good. In the meantime, the hook is there, and I can move it forward should the need arise.But in the process of the scenes unfolding, I don't need to frame anything related to the PCs at all. It's just a part of the world around them and providing color. It might provide a future adventure should they choose to follow it. The "yes" comes from a combination of the expected resources in a city like Waterdeep, combined by their skills. I don't need to frame a haggling check, he'll tell me if he's looking to get the price down or not. Often they aren't worried about it, or have other goals. It's Waterdeep, so there's always the possibility of dealing with smugglers. Again, based on their background and skills, particularly this one character since he is a former merchant (and thief, and fence) from Athkatla Amn, north of Calimshan. No real need for a tailoring check, either, based on his level of skill.Well, to begin with, it doesn't have to be a conflict - which is one of the reasons I don't like 4e because of it's tendency to lean toward combat. The owlbear thing was something that came up in my campaign, and the PCs hadn't seen the cubs, just the angry owlbear. They killed it, only to realize afterwards that it was not a real threat, only defending her cubs. They could have easily found a different, probably better, solution. The ranger in particular took it to heart, and it was a moment where they all recognized that they needed to change their approach a bit (as players and characters).Yes, but if you read/watch those stories, and for that matter most character driven stories, a lot of the "action" is the establishment of characters and relationships between the conflicts. It's the scenes where they spend time trudging through the wilderness, talking and learning about each other, and themselves. The problem is, those don't translate as well to RPGs. Unless you have a group of really good acting-style players. But the other problem is that those types of scenes take much more time as well.So scenes that establish the "normalcy" of the world, the ones that make them stop and consider that the characters are people, interacting with other people, and that "normal" is not "anything we meet is an adversary" brings some of that humanity into the game, gets them thinking a bit more. It also provides dynamics, and provides a broader framing around the action and of the world. You feel that knowing the player/character motivations are essential to being able to frame the scenes. I think that can be quite helpful, but I've found that giving the players a broader understanding of the world, and their characters within it, helps them build better character motivations. I'll learn of the motivations through the course of play (what I don't know from the backstory, that is). The characters seem to take on a life of their own, leading the players down paths they don't expect.</blockquote>

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