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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7094163" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>My claim is that the flexibility of D&D is overrated, and that the non-flexibility of (say) BW is exaggerated. Hence I point to constraints in D&D, and to variants of BW.</p><p></p><p>The idea that D&D is flexible because there are lots of house rules, variants etc out there doesn't change my mind. I'm aware of a reasonable number of them.</p><p></p><p>But other systems can be modified and house-ruled too. The Cortex+ Hacker's Guide is full of such stuff for MHRP, Leverage and Smallville, for instance - I used some of those ideas to run my MHRP/Cortex Fantasy Hack.</p><p></p><p>When I look at 5e, the variants are mostly around PC build rules and some elements of combat action resolution. But at it's core it doesn't look that flexible. Just to give one example: the rate of PC <em>failure</em> in BW is, to me at least, very striking. It's a core feature of the system, and a lot of other system elements are built around it. It's very hard for me to see how 5e would be modified to deliver that sort of experience in any coherent way.</p><p></p><p>The Ideals/Bonds/Flaws mechanic doesn't contain a system for change.</p><p></p><p>And the Inspiration mechanic is triggered by "playing your character in a way that’s true to his or her personality traits, ideal, bond, and flaw" and/or "when you play out your personality traits, give in to the drawbacks presented by a flaw or bond, and otherwise portray your character in a compelling way" (SRD pp59-60). In the PC build dimension, and in the award of Inspiration dimension, there is no concern for conflict.</p><p></p><p>It's also far from clear that the maths of the game, and the basiscs of PC build, support constant access to advantage (eg look at barbarians' Reckless Attack), which means that the GM has a mechanical reason to be cautious in awards of Inspiration.</p><p></p><p>Conversely, the system in BW works in part by relying on the maths of the game: failure is a common default, so spending artha to boost rolls doesn't break the maths, it simply reduces the incidence of failure. A dice-pool system in which players are rolling for successes, not totalling the dice, means that adding bonus dice (Persona points add bonus dice 1-for-1; Fate points allow adding bonus dice by way of opening up 6s for re-rolls) increases the prospects of success while still leaving failure as an option (unlike bonuses in the d20 system); and there are rules for enhancing abilities, over the long sequence of play, by spending artha on them, which give players another consideration to factor in in spending their artha; etc.</p><p></p><p>Well, hit points and damage dice are central to any D&D game. Does that mean that all the "flexible" options you are pointing to are all just changes in scenery?</p><p></p><p>Furthermore, Burning THACO presents a <em>completely different</em> way of establishing and using backstory, and of establishing Beliefs: instead of the players working out Beliefs for their PCs, and the GM "going where the action is", the GM (via choice of module) establishes what the action is, and estabishes a whole lot of secret backstory (contained in the module keys) that s/he will use to adjudicate action declarations, and the players set Beliefs that fit with the module. That you see this shift from largely player-driven to largey GM-driven play as "a mere change of scenery" is to me very telling. It suggests that, in judging whether or not D&D is notably flexible compared to other systems, there are whole dimensions of game play that you are disregarding.</p><p></p><p>In any event, if you wanted to strip Beliefs, artha etc out of BW (and the "fail forward" resolution logic that accompanies it) then you'd have a simulationist dice-pool system that plays a bit like RQ or RM (or a fantasy version of Classic Traveller). I don't know if that would be fun or not - they're fairly brutal systems, and BW played in this way would be just as brutal, I suspect - but it could be done easily enough. You could even - to ameliorate the brutality - just put in a rule where each player gets (say) 2 Fate and 1 Persona at the start of each session.</p><p></p><p>Which is actually another thing D&D can't do: this sort of classic sim game.</p><p></p><p>Seriously? So D&D is flexible because it has all these official and unofficial house rules, including under the OGL, but Torchbearear and Mouse Guard - which are BW variants designed and published by the BW designers and which have a greater degree of mechanical resemblance to BW than Moldvay Basic does to 5e - don't count as indicators of BW's flexibility?</p><p></p><p>OK, then, you win. (And no doubt that the HeroQuest revised rulebook is full of example that include low-brow superhero hijinks doesn't tell us anything about what that game can be used for either.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7094163, member: 42582"] My claim is that the flexibility of D&D is overrated, and that the non-flexibility of (say) BW is exaggerated. Hence I point to constraints in D&D, and to variants of BW. The idea that D&D is flexible because there are lots of house rules, variants etc out there doesn't change my mind. I'm aware of a reasonable number of them. But other systems can be modified and house-ruled too. The Cortex+ Hacker's Guide is full of such stuff for MHRP, Leverage and Smallville, for instance - I used some of those ideas to run my MHRP/Cortex Fantasy Hack. When I look at 5e, the variants are mostly around PC build rules and some elements of combat action resolution. But at it's core it doesn't look that flexible. Just to give one example: the rate of PC [i]failure[/i] in BW is, to me at least, very striking. It's a core feature of the system, and a lot of other system elements are built around it. It's very hard for me to see how 5e would be modified to deliver that sort of experience in any coherent way. The Ideals/Bonds/Flaws mechanic doesn't contain a system for change. And the Inspiration mechanic is triggered by "playing your character in a way that’s true to his or her personality traits, ideal, bond, and flaw" and/or "when you play out your personality traits, give in to the drawbacks presented by a flaw or bond, and otherwise portray your character in a compelling way" (SRD pp59-60). In the PC build dimension, and in the award of Inspiration dimension, there is no concern for conflict. It's also far from clear that the maths of the game, and the basiscs of PC build, support constant access to advantage (eg look at barbarians' Reckless Attack), which means that the GM has a mechanical reason to be cautious in awards of Inspiration. Conversely, the system in BW works in part by relying on the maths of the game: failure is a common default, so spending artha to boost rolls doesn't break the maths, it simply reduces the incidence of failure. A dice-pool system in which players are rolling for successes, not totalling the dice, means that adding bonus dice (Persona points add bonus dice 1-for-1; Fate points allow adding bonus dice by way of opening up 6s for re-rolls) increases the prospects of success while still leaving failure as an option (unlike bonuses in the d20 system); and there are rules for enhancing abilities, over the long sequence of play, by spending artha on them, which give players another consideration to factor in in spending their artha; etc. Well, hit points and damage dice are central to any D&D game. Does that mean that all the "flexible" options you are pointing to are all just changes in scenery? Furthermore, Burning THACO presents a [I]completely different[/I] way of establishing and using backstory, and of establishing Beliefs: instead of the players working out Beliefs for their PCs, and the GM "going where the action is", the GM (via choice of module) establishes what the action is, and estabishes a whole lot of secret backstory (contained in the module keys) that s/he will use to adjudicate action declarations, and the players set Beliefs that fit with the module. That you see this shift from largely player-driven to largey GM-driven play as "a mere change of scenery" is to me very telling. It suggests that, in judging whether or not D&D is notably flexible compared to other systems, there are whole dimensions of game play that you are disregarding. In any event, if you wanted to strip Beliefs, artha etc out of BW (and the "fail forward" resolution logic that accompanies it) then you'd have a simulationist dice-pool system that plays a bit like RQ or RM (or a fantasy version of Classic Traveller). I don't know if that would be fun or not - they're fairly brutal systems, and BW played in this way would be just as brutal, I suspect - but it could be done easily enough. You could even - to ameliorate the brutality - just put in a rule where each player gets (say) 2 Fate and 1 Persona at the start of each session. Which is actually another thing D&D can't do: this sort of classic sim game. Seriously? So D&D is flexible because it has all these official and unofficial house rules, including under the OGL, but Torchbearear and Mouse Guard - which are BW variants designed and published by the BW designers and which have a greater degree of mechanical resemblance to BW than Moldvay Basic does to 5e - don't count as indicators of BW's flexibility? OK, then, you win. (And no doubt that the HeroQuest revised rulebook is full of example that include low-brow superhero hijinks doesn't tell us anything about what that game can be used for either.) [/QUOTE]
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