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Judgement calls vs "railroading"
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<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7095457" data-attributes="member: 6778044"><p>That's not the way I look at it. It's not driven by my concerns. It's driven by the world and what makes sense for the people in it. Yes, as the DM I have a hand in the authoring of the world. But I'm presenting "just the facts" - it's entirely up to the players to decide where they go and what they do.</p><p></p><p>PC: I want to buy stuff</p><p></p><p>DM: No problem Waterdeep has stuff. What skills will help you with this?</p><p></p><p>PC: I'm an ex-merchant.</p><p></p><p>DM: OK, you can tell that some people are selling forgeries (expected in a large city), and the price is higher than usual.</p><p></p><p>PC: Can I get a better price?</p><p></p><p>DM: Only at one place, everybody else held firm.</p><p></p><p>PC: I wonder why</p><p></p><p>DM: Rumors of civil war in Calimshan</p><p></p><p>I don't really see how this is "driven by my concerns." It has some potential adventure hooks, but other than the hooks, those adventures haven't been written. If they take one, then we'll see where it leads.</p><p></p><p>I see it as being driven entirely from the PC's concerns. The PC is the one that says they want to go buy the silk, and their questioning is what leads to additional hooks.</p><p></p><p>The reason I say I don't see it as "framing the scene" is because I'm specifically not trying to make the scene interesting, or tying it into the motivation of the PCs. I'm not trying to make it uninteresting, I'm just not actively trying to steer it in any specific direction. What I get out of the BW/DW recommended approach (which may be incorrect) is that you're always trying to tie <em>every</em> scene into the motivations and story of the PCs. To me <em>that</em> sounds like the story is being driven by the DM's concern - or their interpretation of what the players/characters are looking for. </p><p></p><p>My goal is to present the world uncolored by my wishes in regards to story line/fiction. I love detailing the world itself, and the motivation of the others that live their. But all of that is still just scenery and color until the PCs interact with it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And I think that a DM-driven game is characterized by the DM writing story arcs and attempting to keep the game within that story arc. Although it doesn't always require railroading, it's quite difficult to have a DM-driven game that doesn't involve railroading. Although I have some input on the character's story arcs regarding NPCs like family members (especially extended ones) and history, the rest of my preparation and story arcs are written about the world around them, without involvement with the PCs. </p><p></p><p>When the PCs intersect with these story arcs, they then have the control over the story. Yes, I still have control over the NPCs, and the decisions they make will write a part of those story arcs too. But those are driven by the NPCs established goals and personalities, and the logical reactions they will have to the PCs involvement.</p><p></p><p>Of course, I've had some players that don't contribute much to any story arc. These are the types of players that I find don't play in a sandbox style well. They need more to hang onto from a story arc, and in particular they have generally been most interested in a more epic style story arc. I can accommodate that as well, and the last campaign morphed more and more into that as the players involved changed. But it's not my preferred approach, because I think that the collaborative story is much better. I just have different thresholds as to what the players author and what they don't. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I described an angry owlbear which is a potential conflict. It's an obstacle to potentially be overcome. They can run away, they can try to calm it down, they can fight it, whatever.</p><p></p><p>Most people I know agree that 4e put combat front-and-center. That doesn't mean that you can't run a 4e game without combat being a focus. Nor does it mean that a non-4e game won't involve combat.</p><p></p><p>The fact that the players chose combat this time doesn't tell you anything about the rest of the campaign. In addition, this particular encounter really altered their approach to encounters, and when they would actually resort to combat.</p><p></p><p>I don't see any connection between this, and the question of whether or not the GM is "going where the action is". Unless one is assuming that <em>the action</em> doesn't involve the normalcy of the world and considerations of humanity - but what is the basis for such an assumption?</p></blockquote><p></p><p>Perhaps I'm not explaining it well. My point is that "going where the action is," at least as I've seen it explained, is that you skip past the boring parts. The idea of framing scenes like a movie or TV show. Each scene has a beginning, middle, and end, and once you reach the end, you jump ahead to the next scene. </p><p></p><p>The scenes are when something "interesting" happens in the fiction. That things like the traveling from one place to another, the exploration in the dungeon with empty rooms, etc. basically anything that doesn't have an encounter, a decision point, or moving the fiction forward, is a scene to be skipped. </p><p></p><p>The scene framing (at least the way I think about it) comes into play because of that construct.</p><p></p><p>For example, If you're following me with a camera, and I get up, put on my gun holster, I sit down for breakfast, then call my wife, who asks me to get some stuff at the grocery store, which I write down on a pad of paper on my desk, that shows the name of my private detective company at the top, then put on my coat, and I walk out my front door, then get in the car, drive to a client's, have a conversation, go to the hardware store, the pharmacy, meet a friend for lunch, stake out an office building, watching several people enter and exit over the course of hours, taking pictures, taking notes, go to the grocery store where a villain attacks me, there isn't really any need to frame the scene. The narrative is continuous and flows from one "scene" to another. More importantly, you probably aren't expecting the attack in the grocery store. </p><p></p><p>On the other hand, you might start with me getting out of the car at the grocery store. The camera pans up so when I'm leaning to get out of the car, you see the gun holster under my coat. You've framed the scene - I'm carrying a gun, and there will probably be a use for it in the grocery store, or you wouldn't have shown it to me so obviously.</p><p></p><p>When the violence happens in the grocery store, the expectation is that the gun will come into play. But in the first scene, that's just a routine "getting up to go to work" which happens to involve a gun, the expectation in the scene is different. </p><p></p><p>Yes, both are technically scene framing. And one could argue that the first one is just a really long frame. But eventually it's long enough that it's not a frame, it's just part of the life of the character. Sure, waking up, getting dressed, getting breakfast, etc. establishes a normalcy, that life isn't really all that different for me than anybody else. More importantly, the attack isn't even necessarily expected at that point. There's no framing that points to a specific, violent encounter.</p><p></p><p>The boring, mundane part of life makes the character more human, you don't expect the violent encounter, and it has a greater impact when it happens. I see lots of advice to skip all of that. That's not to say that you can't gloss through some of it. Breakfast doesn't have to be watching him eat the whole thing, for example. The stakeout can show the passage of time based on how much of my coffee is drunk, etc. But what I'm not doing is deciding, as the DM, when the scene ends, and what we skip. Again, that sounds more like a DM-driven game, where the DM is deciding what's important and what's not. I'm also not waving a flag and saying, "pay attention, something important is happening here, or we wouldn't be here."</p><p></p><p>I do think that there are a lot of good approaches that have been mentioned here from those style of games. As I was writing out the market scene, it occurred to me that I give the player a lot of leeway on describing their past and how that will help with the current scenario. Likewise, when they meet somebody that their character knows from their past, I give them a lot of leeway in describing their relationship, how they feel about each other, perhaps some key events that explain why they feel that way about each other, etc. So I do let the players write a lot more at the table than I have given credit. Overall, I don't think we're all that far apart in our approaches, other than I like to have a really well detailed world ready for the PCs to explore.</p><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 7095457, member: 6778044"] That's not the way I look at it. It's not driven by my concerns. It's driven by the world and what makes sense for the people in it. Yes, as the DM I have a hand in the authoring of the world. But I'm presenting "just the facts" - it's entirely up to the players to decide where they go and what they do. PC: I want to buy stuff DM: No problem Waterdeep has stuff. What skills will help you with this? PC: I'm an ex-merchant. DM: OK, you can tell that some people are selling forgeries (expected in a large city), and the price is higher than usual. PC: Can I get a better price? DM: Only at one place, everybody else held firm. PC: I wonder why DM: Rumors of civil war in Calimshan I don't really see how this is "driven by my concerns." It has some potential adventure hooks, but other than the hooks, those adventures haven't been written. If they take one, then we'll see where it leads. I see it as being driven entirely from the PC's concerns. The PC is the one that says they want to go buy the silk, and their questioning is what leads to additional hooks. The reason I say I don't see it as "framing the scene" is because I'm specifically not trying to make the scene interesting, or tying it into the motivation of the PCs. I'm not trying to make it uninteresting, I'm just not actively trying to steer it in any specific direction. What I get out of the BW/DW recommended approach (which may be incorrect) is that you're always trying to tie [I]every[/I] scene into the motivations and story of the PCs. To me [I]that[/I] sounds like the story is being driven by the DM's concern - or their interpretation of what the players/characters are looking for. My goal is to present the world uncolored by my wishes in regards to story line/fiction. I love detailing the world itself, and the motivation of the others that live their. But all of that is still just scenery and color until the PCs interact with it. And I think that a DM-driven game is characterized by the DM writing story arcs and attempting to keep the game within that story arc. Although it doesn't always require railroading, it's quite difficult to have a DM-driven game that doesn't involve railroading. Although I have some input on the character's story arcs regarding NPCs like family members (especially extended ones) and history, the rest of my preparation and story arcs are written about the world around them, without involvement with the PCs. When the PCs intersect with these story arcs, they then have the control over the story. Yes, I still have control over the NPCs, and the decisions they make will write a part of those story arcs too. But those are driven by the NPCs established goals and personalities, and the logical reactions they will have to the PCs involvement. Of course, I've had some players that don't contribute much to any story arc. These are the types of players that I find don't play in a sandbox style well. They need more to hang onto from a story arc, and in particular they have generally been most interested in a more epic style story arc. I can accommodate that as well, and the last campaign morphed more and more into that as the players involved changed. But it's not my preferred approach, because I think that the collaborative story is much better. I just have different thresholds as to what the players author and what they don't. I described an angry owlbear which is a potential conflict. It's an obstacle to potentially be overcome. They can run away, they can try to calm it down, they can fight it, whatever. Most people I know agree that 4e put combat front-and-center. That doesn't mean that you can't run a 4e game without combat being a focus. Nor does it mean that a non-4e game won't involve combat. The fact that the players chose combat this time doesn't tell you anything about the rest of the campaign. In addition, this particular encounter really altered their approach to encounters, and when they would actually resort to combat. I don't see any connection between this, and the question of whether or not the GM is "going where the action is". Unless one is assuming that [i]the action[/i] doesn't involve the normalcy of the world and considerations of humanity - but what is the basis for such an assumption?[/QUOTE] Perhaps I'm not explaining it well. My point is that "going where the action is," at least as I've seen it explained, is that you skip past the boring parts. The idea of framing scenes like a movie or TV show. Each scene has a beginning, middle, and end, and once you reach the end, you jump ahead to the next scene. The scenes are when something "interesting" happens in the fiction. That things like the traveling from one place to another, the exploration in the dungeon with empty rooms, etc. basically anything that doesn't have an encounter, a decision point, or moving the fiction forward, is a scene to be skipped. The scene framing (at least the way I think about it) comes into play because of that construct. For example, If you're following me with a camera, and I get up, put on my gun holster, I sit down for breakfast, then call my wife, who asks me to get some stuff at the grocery store, which I write down on a pad of paper on my desk, that shows the name of my private detective company at the top, then put on my coat, and I walk out my front door, then get in the car, drive to a client's, have a conversation, go to the hardware store, the pharmacy, meet a friend for lunch, stake out an office building, watching several people enter and exit over the course of hours, taking pictures, taking notes, go to the grocery store where a villain attacks me, there isn't really any need to frame the scene. The narrative is continuous and flows from one "scene" to another. More importantly, you probably aren't expecting the attack in the grocery store. On the other hand, you might start with me getting out of the car at the grocery store. The camera pans up so when I'm leaning to get out of the car, you see the gun holster under my coat. You've framed the scene - I'm carrying a gun, and there will probably be a use for it in the grocery store, or you wouldn't have shown it to me so obviously. When the violence happens in the grocery store, the expectation is that the gun will come into play. But in the first scene, that's just a routine "getting up to go to work" which happens to involve a gun, the expectation in the scene is different. Yes, both are technically scene framing. And one could argue that the first one is just a really long frame. But eventually it's long enough that it's not a frame, it's just part of the life of the character. Sure, waking up, getting dressed, getting breakfast, etc. establishes a normalcy, that life isn't really all that different for me than anybody else. More importantly, the attack isn't even necessarily expected at that point. There's no framing that points to a specific, violent encounter. The boring, mundane part of life makes the character more human, you don't expect the violent encounter, and it has a greater impact when it happens. I see lots of advice to skip all of that. That's not to say that you can't gloss through some of it. Breakfast doesn't have to be watching him eat the whole thing, for example. The stakeout can show the passage of time based on how much of my coffee is drunk, etc. But what I'm not doing is deciding, as the DM, when the scene ends, and what we skip. Again, that sounds more like a DM-driven game, where the DM is deciding what's important and what's not. I'm also not waving a flag and saying, "pay attention, something important is happening here, or we wouldn't be here." I do think that there are a lot of good approaches that have been mentioned here from those style of games. As I was writing out the market scene, it occurred to me that I give the player a lot of leeway on describing their past and how that will help with the current scenario. Likewise, when they meet somebody that their character knows from their past, I give them a lot of leeway in describing their relationship, how they feel about each other, perhaps some key events that explain why they feel that way about each other, etc. So I do let the players write a lot more at the table than I have given credit. Overall, I don't think we're all that far apart in our approaches, other than I like to have a really well detailed world ready for the PCs to explore. [/QUOTE]
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