Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7101456" data-attributes="member: 16814">Yeah, so, this post is why I dislike fisking.&nbsp; It makes actual discussion nearly impossible.&nbsp; The only way to respond to the barrage of individual thoughts is to fisk back, and that begins to lose the structure and context of the original argument, and then you just end up arguing about arguments and have no idea what the initial point of contention was..&nbsp; And 'the medium and short attention spans lend themselves to fisking' as an excuse?&nbsp; Really?&nbsp; You have to chop up the post, which takes way more work that hitting 'Reply with Quote' and then replying.&nbsp; Still, I'll try to address the highlights.The definitions of Story Now and Illusionism are written to be mutually exclusive, yes, but not explicitly so, so there's plenty of room to slide in an argument using those definition.&nbsp; So Illusionism is the subversion of player intent with DM intent in a manner that's not obvious to the player (or it's failed Illusionism, natch).&nbsp; I maintain that Story Now games are still susceptible to this occurring.&nbsp; Less so than &quot;traditional&quot; gaming (for lack of a better term atm)?&nbsp; Sure, but still doable.&nbsp; I go back to making a game about demons being something you can do regardless of player declarations.&nbsp; Takes more work (especially to do it subtly), but you can do it.&nbsp; You can even drive to a plot you prefer.&nbsp; Specifics are much harder, but a skilled DM can lead the players into caring about things he introduces (maybe as framing, maybe as failure narration).&nbsp; Done well, the players will continue to think it's their idea all along.&nbsp; This is pretty much the same set of skills as pulling a con, but much easier as the players have already bought into the premise of the con -- a game.&nbsp; After that...And, yes, I know the rejoinder:&nbsp; but that's not playing the game with integrity.&nbsp; Well, neither is offering a choice that doesn't matter in &quot;traditional&quot; gaming, so I don't see how that's a valid counter.&nbsp;&nbsp; All forms of Illusionism are not playing with integrity, no matter what system you play.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7101456, member: 16814"] Yeah, so, this post is why I dislike fisking. It makes actual discussion nearly impossible. The only way to respond to the barrage of individual thoughts is to fisk back, and that begins to lose the structure and context of the original argument, and then you just end up arguing about arguments and have no idea what the initial point of contention was.. And 'the medium and short attention spans lend themselves to fisking' as an excuse? Really? You have to chop up the post, which takes way more work that hitting 'Reply with Quote' and then replying. Still, I'll try to address the highlights. The definitions of Story Now and Illusionism are written to be mutually exclusive, yes, but not explicitly so, so there's plenty of room to slide in an argument using those definition. So Illusionism is the subversion of player intent with DM intent in a manner that's not obvious to the player (or it's failed Illusionism, natch). I maintain that Story Now games are still susceptible to this occurring. Less so than "traditional" gaming (for lack of a better term atm)? Sure, but still doable. I go back to making a game about demons being something you can do regardless of player declarations. Takes more work (especially to do it subtly), but you can do it. You can even drive to a plot you prefer. Specifics are much harder, but a skilled DM can lead the players into caring about things he introduces (maybe as framing, maybe as failure narration). Done well, the players will continue to think it's their idea all along. This is pretty much the same set of skills as pulling a con, but much easier as the players have already bought into the premise of the con -- a game. After that... And, yes, I know the rejoinder: but that's not playing the game with integrity. Well, neither is offering a choice that doesn't matter in "traditional" gaming, so I don't see how that's a valid counter. All forms of Illusionism are not playing with integrity, no matter what system you play. [/QUOTE]

Verification