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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7102310" data-attributes="member: 6778044">Not being one who likes absolutes...I think means matter only when the participants care about the means. At least when we're talking about a game.In other words if the players don't object to DM tools or techniques such a illusionism, sleight of hand, fudging, etc., then the means don't matter.To put it a different way, Lan- "I don't care how my DM does it, as long as he does it" - efan tells his DM: This is the result I want (a fun enjoyable immersive consistent game), and of all of the tools and techniques available to you, I don't have any objections.In which case the specific tool or technique is irrelevant, as long as the result (a fun enjoyable immersive consistent game) occurs. A different example: A player tells me they are going to search the passage for traps. I ask them how. They tell me that they are going to cast fog cloud, then a gust cantrip to blow flour over the dampened hallway and see what it sticks to."Yes, as the fog clears, you notice a fine trip wire covered in flour about 1/2 from the floor."Does the fact I didn't make a skill check matter? That is, did the means matter?It might be fair to say that means always matter to you. Although I suspect if we tested that theory we'd find it's not 100% consistent either. At least that's what I keep finding when I challenge my own positions. Having said that, I wonder: what is your opinion is of the "finding the tomb in the mountains" example I just posted (#1573)? 1) If the goal is to find the tomb in the mountains, if placement is finalized during the game, is that illusionism? 2) Is it illusionism if the placement is via engagement of the rules (such as random determination)? If different than #1, why?3) Is it different if we're referring to the player's goal or DM's goal?4) Is it different if there is no goal to find a/the tomb? That is, if they are just wandering and the DM has a tomb to place and just selects a location in game? If so, why?I'm not sure I have definitive answers myself just yet...</blockquote>

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