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Message: <blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 7105052" data-attributes="member: 6785785">It's hard to say what I am disagreeing with. I have acknowledged that your playstyle is not Illusionism in the Forge-established meaning of the word as you are using it. I've said that repeatedly....yet your responses always go back to making that point. So, it's hard to engage since you seem to be disputing something other than what I am saying. My original point was that there are elements common to both the playstyle you are putting forth (or at least in my interpretation of such) and a more traditional playstyle where GM force and illusionism come into the picture. I disagree with you about this, to a certain extent. Not so much about the brainstorming aspect, or that such musings cannot be changed. But in the establishment of backstory. Perhaps some will see this as a pedantic point, but I think there is a subtle but important distinction here that may be a big factor. If a GM introduces an NPC and has even a faint idea that the NPC will have a fate along the lines of being the father of one of the PCs, then I think something has been established. Not within the game world, I know, but established in the mind of the GM. I would expect that if that is the GM's intention....if he's even considered this as a possibility for this NPC....then that's going to affect how he uses the NPC. He's already putting that NPC into a position of importance. Certainly the PCs will latch onto the mysterious villain more than they will the shopkeeper who sold them some rope and a lantern. The GM is very likely steering things in this manner. The degree to which he does so will vary greatly from GM to GM, I'm sure....but I'm sure it's there in many games. So let's say there are two NPCs....a mysterious figure whom the PCs have run into and who seems opposed to them in some way. They don't know that much about this guy, other than that he's incredibly dangerous, and that very few people know about him. The GM has an idea that this NPC could be related to one of the PCs, could in fact be the father that the player had determined was an important element for the character. All framing or story establishment or scenario construction or whatever term you want to use is made with this in mind. It's never openly established in the fiction, but it's certainly not contradicted, and it's there in the back pocket of the GM to introduce when the time is right. So the GM's ideas have already affected things to some extent. The fact that nothing is so definitive as to be a contradiction if the GM's brainstormed idea doesn't come to fruition doesn't change the fact that this idea has influenced things. At the very least, the game world will take shape in such a way as to not contradict the possibility of the GM's idea. So, I think that even brainstorming helps to establish things to some extent....an extent that could in fact be important, and have an impact on how the game takes shape. Yes, these things could change....much in the same way that two rooms on a map can be swapped. This state of potential flux is the similarity I spoke of above. Yes, the narration of the GM only establishes that the NPC has claimed to be the PC's father. This is entirely true. This can also be the case in a GM driven game. Let's say I am running a very backstory heavy game....it's plot heavy and there is little focus on the personal lives of the PCs. But I decide to change that and have the big bad guy turn out to be one of the PC's father. But then, as we build up to hat, something happens that makes me decide to change that....so I decide the unassuming shopkeeper is actually the PC's dad, and has been helping the PCs because he hopes they can stop the big bad, who was the shopkeeper's enemy long ago.....Yes, there would be some proponents of GM driven games that would insist that the villain is the father because that's what the GM was going for. But not all GM driven games must be so. The technique you are describing is not unique to your chosen games. Not be possible? Why not? I don't disagree with it being very feasible in the "story now" approach. I don't follow your reasoning here at all. "Are these the end times?" or some variant on that is probably a really common element in many games, regardless of approach. And I would expect almost any GM to say that the answer is up to the PCs. Even if it's a pure railroad all along and all that matters is if the PCs defeat the big bad in the final encounter. If they beat the big bad, it ain't the end times....if they don't, it is. Up to the PCs, isn't it? Again, I think you are assuming that a GM driven game must be the opposite of the story now/player driven approach that you prefer....so you assign attributes to it that may or may not apply. This is why I've described my game as a mix of both elements.....because I don't see them as mutually exclusive opposites.</blockquote>

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