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Judgement calls vs "railroading"
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7123381" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Yes. I said this in the OP, in the context of describing a GM judgement call that was not railroading.</p><p></p><p>I don't see how both these claims can be true. If the GM has the power to override anything, than she can choose to ignore the outcomes of attack rolls, initiative rolls, etc. And thus choosing not to do so is itself a judgement call.</p><p></p><p>But in fact I don't agree that the GM has the power to override anything. Upthread I've already quoted the rules text from BW which states that (i) dice rolls are sacrosanct, and (ii) if a check succeeds then the player's intent is realised (BW Gold p 300:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">If the successes equal or exceed the obstacle, the character has succeeded in his goal - he achieved his intent and completed the task.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">This is important enough to say again: Characters who are successful complete actions in the manner described by the player. A successful roll is sacrosanct in Burning Wheel and neither GM nor other players can change the fact that the act was successful. The GM may only embellish or reinforce a successful ability test.</p><p></p><p>If a GM wants to ignore that rule, that's like a player ignoring some rule of the game (eg in PC building). The question at that point becomes a social one - will the rest of the group tolerate or even embrace the rulebreaking - but there is no sanction or succour to be found in the game itself.</p><p></p><p>Yes, I know that people are saying that. But they're not providing actual examples. It's conjecture, or perhaps extrapolation from experience where the GM was routinely adjudicating resolution by appeal to secret backstory.</p><p></p><p>I'll go back to the example of the orc encounter. Nothing in my characters' Beliefs or Instincts invokes orcs as an element of play. Thurgon's Belifes are about his god, his order, his family and his companion. His Instincts are about praying, protecting his companion, and maintaining the campfire. Aramina's Beliefs are about her wealth/status, her companion, and fire. Her Instincts are about her cloak, strangers, and spell casting.</p><p></p><p>So when my GM frames us into an encounter with orcs - as a consequence of a failed check to search a ruined homestead - it is evident that the enthusiasm for orcs is his. There is no illusion, nor any "steering" via "small, minute judgement calls". Likewise when the elves turn up.</p><p></p><p>Conversely, when the orcs threaten Aramina, that <em>is</em> the GM engaging my evinced concerns for Thurgon - both a Belief and an Instinct. And when, as a player - following Luke Crane's description of my "sacred and most holy role" - I took the opportunity to inject my evinced concerns into the elf situation by trying to persuade the elf to accompany me to my family estate, the GM accepted my Duel of Wits and we resolved it. (I lost.)</p><p></p><p>The elements that are in the fiction because of the GM's interests are evident. The elements that are in the fiction because of my evinced interests as a player are evident. The resolution is in accordance with the system's mechanics. It simply makes no sense to posit the GM "secretly steering". It's like supposing that someone asking you to join him/her for coffee is trying to "secretly steer you" into a cafe! I mean, yes, they're putting that suggestion out there, but there's nothing covert about it!</p><p></p><p>I wouldn't say I'm <em>advocating</em>, in the sense that I don't think anyone who enjoys "settting/story tourism" RPGing has any reason to change.</p><p></p><p>But I am asserting that that's not the only option out there. I'm asserting that player-driven RPGing, of the sort I (and Luke Crane, and Eero Tuovinen, and Ron Edwards, and Paul Czege, and others) describe, is a real thing that really happens, with its own logic, associated techniques, etc.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7123381, member: 42582"] Yes. I said this in the OP, in the context of describing a GM judgement call that was not railroading. I don't see how both these claims can be true. If the GM has the power to override anything, than she can choose to ignore the outcomes of attack rolls, initiative rolls, etc. And thus choosing not to do so is itself a judgement call. But in fact I don't agree that the GM has the power to override anything. Upthread I've already quoted the rules text from BW which states that (i) dice rolls are sacrosanct, and (ii) if a check succeeds then the player's intent is realised (BW Gold p 300: [indent]If the successes equal or exceed the obstacle, the character has succeeded in his goal - he achieved his intent and completed the task. This is important enough to say again: Characters who are successful complete actions in the manner described by the player. A successful roll is sacrosanct in Burning Wheel and neither GM nor other players can change the fact that the act was successful. The GM may only embellish or reinforce a successful ability test.[/indent] If a GM wants to ignore that rule, that's like a player ignoring some rule of the game (eg in PC building). The question at that point becomes a social one - will the rest of the group tolerate or even embrace the rulebreaking - but there is no sanction or succour to be found in the game itself. Yes, I know that people are saying that. But they're not providing actual examples. It's conjecture, or perhaps extrapolation from experience where the GM was routinely adjudicating resolution by appeal to secret backstory. I'll go back to the example of the orc encounter. Nothing in my characters' Beliefs or Instincts invokes orcs as an element of play. Thurgon's Belifes are about his god, his order, his family and his companion. His Instincts are about praying, protecting his companion, and maintaining the campfire. Aramina's Beliefs are about her wealth/status, her companion, and fire. Her Instincts are about her cloak, strangers, and spell casting. So when my GM frames us into an encounter with orcs - as a consequence of a failed check to search a ruined homestead - it is evident that the enthusiasm for orcs is his. There is no illusion, nor any "steering" via "small, minute judgement calls". Likewise when the elves turn up. Conversely, when the orcs threaten Aramina, that [I]is[/I] the GM engaging my evinced concerns for Thurgon - both a Belief and an Instinct. And when, as a player - following Luke Crane's description of my "sacred and most holy role" - I took the opportunity to inject my evinced concerns into the elf situation by trying to persuade the elf to accompany me to my family estate, the GM accepted my Duel of Wits and we resolved it. (I lost.) The elements that are in the fiction because of the GM's interests are evident. The elements that are in the fiction because of my evinced interests as a player are evident. The resolution is in accordance with the system's mechanics. It simply makes no sense to posit the GM "secretly steering". It's like supposing that someone asking you to join him/her for coffee is trying to "secretly steer you" into a cafe! I mean, yes, they're putting that suggestion out there, but there's nothing covert about it! I wouldn't say I'm [I]advocating[/I], in the sense that I don't think anyone who enjoys "settting/story tourism" RPGing has any reason to change. But I am asserting that that's not the only option out there. I'm asserting that player-driven RPGing, of the sort I (and Luke Crane, and Eero Tuovinen, and Ron Edwards, and Paul Czege, and others) describe, is a real thing that really happens, with its own logic, associated techniques, etc. [/QUOTE]
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