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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 6847036" data-attributes="member: 12731">I think it's easiest if I simply let you read my posts, and then let you re-ask any questions you feel I haven't adressed. Okay?Not sure I need to say this, but just to be safe: My aim is to have a Demon Lord that deserves his CR (in the early or mid twenties). Based on my experience with the system so far, I am being led to believe the following: To truly outclass a party of my players' caliber, a CR of > APL+10 is needed for a Solo as defined by this thread. Monsters of a CR 5 to 10 steps above the party level are tough, but definitely not impossible to defeat.In the context of this encounter: * if the party themselves is in the 21+ level range, he's reduced to "just another monster" (especially in his original WotC stat form). And they could concievably fight more than one Demon Lord at a time. And that would be fine.* If the party is only 5 steps lower or so, the monster would make a fine challenge - if surrounded by an entourage and/or in his lair. * A properly decked out level 16 party should, being less than ten levels away from his CR, find him a challenge, but should expect to persevere, assuming they can get to him when he's alone (meaning they can pull out all the stops and not have other encounters that day) and not on his home turf. Such as when trapped in the Underdark (as opposed to back home in the Abyss...)Any lower than that... A level 11 party should be able to avoid a TPK if they try him on for size but break off the attack in time. But they should definitely find the combat daunting to say the least, and they should definitely get their noses bloodied, rather than getting a sense that they can take him down. It's okay if an unlucky character croaks, to get across the point.Based on the above, I would say the book Juiblex is perhaps CR 19. Which is to say, for the "assumed" non-optimal non-geared party; a perfectly fine challenge. But specifically for my campaign: the risk that the expedition led by the PCs will attack and defeat Juiblex the Solo if they stumble upon him right after leaving Mantol-Derith is uncomfortably high.This isn't about denying the characters a moment of glory. This is about maintaining the integrity of the campaign.</blockquote>

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