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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 6847183" data-attributes="member: 12731">Well, I feel saying us having "fundamental differences" is a bit drastic. I feel I haven't really succeeded in explaining my position... or the jumbled post order got in the way?Anyhow, here goes: Conceptually I agree. However, we must always qualify any CR-related statement with "...for a given party". And I really have no problems with that party being weaker than the party I'm DM:ing. In fact, the reverse would be awful - if a bunch of rather minmaxing players can't get ahead of the curve that would be rather bad for a variety of reasons, the most important one probably being that newbs would then be "behind the curve", rather than on it, which could be very discouraging.Much better then for a DM like you or me to add a bunch of extra monsters into the mix to spice it up for players that can handle the heat. At least for me, since I'm not using the xp system for levelling. Extra monsters does not mean speedier leveling (which would obviously throw a spanner in the idea of adding more monsters to up the challenge; if it meant the PCs would level up faster than expected).So, if my party can consistently handle a threat 5 CR higher, say, than what the core game assumes, that would still leave the CR system useable for me, since I would simply throw a CR 17 monster at the party when the book tells me to use a CR 12 monster. Or, more likely, use two or three of the CR 12 critters instead of the one prescribed by the module. (Please ignore the actual numbers, they're just examples).So TBH I don't think you need to worry about upgrading your epic monsters too much. As long as you present a consistent set of Challenge Ratings that any given DM can then "calibrate to" visavi that particular DM's player characters... that's okay. Whether this means a CR of 5 + APL becomes a cakewalk or a death trap isn't and shouldn't be a big concern. Focus instead on making CR X that much easier than CR X+5, so that if one group finds the CR X monster, say Juiblex, a cakewalk and a CR X+5 monster, say Demogorgon, a tough but winnable fight, and another group finds Juiblex a deadly encounter but Demogorgon a TPK. Focus on the relative difference, and trust the individual DM to tweak your final monsters for their personal group. And in that regard, I can respect that WotC have gunned for the soft end of the spectum. You don't have to do that, but you should be aware that you might be redefining the CR unit if you don't. That is respectfully my honest advice.Back to Old Sludgy. I look at Juiblex and I don't see CR 23. Definitely not my-party-CR-23. Not even the "soft by the book CR 23". Juiblex seems more like a big dumb upper teens soft CR, let's say CR 18. And that's a problem. Because there's no Juiblexian CR 27 monster I can use instead...!But then there's a more specific problem. And that is that Juiblex is slated to make an appearance at a certain stage of the Out of the Abyss module. For this purpose, I don't give a rat's ass about his Challenge Rating, as long as he Does. Not. Lose against the level 11ish or so party. Even on their good day, when they're fully fresh and Juiblex is all alone.So my goals for Juiblex and this thread?Update Juiblex partly to make him conform even to the official-but-soft CR 23 he's supposed to be. Also update Juiblex to avoid him embarrassing all the other Demon Lords, by keeling over to a random level 11 party (that just so happens to be my level 11 party). Luckily, I happen to believe it's possible to have a single set of stats that fulfils both these goals <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I hope this makes my intent clear. And hopefully you'll agree we aren't having opposite goals, even though we certainly focus on different things <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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