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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AllisterH" data-source="post: 3664076" data-attributes="member: 51325">Er, isn't that 1st level spell color spray AND sleep?  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> I agree somewhat with you since if you do push the check as high as possible, you end up with an obscene DC but I've found that in practice, any of the Toger Claw manoeuvers which have a DC based on the normal method, the opponents pretty much always pass it.The thing is, without the stun effect AND the high save, I wouldn't bother with the strike and thus wouldn't try to maximise it. If you set the DC as 10+manouever level+str mod, most of the creatures you want to use it against will make their saves since Fort is a strong save for many creatures (Animals, Dragons, Giants, Magical Beasts, Outsiders and Vermin all of which tend to have great Fort saves) AND many creatures are just plain immune to stunning (Constructs, Undead, Plants, Oozes and Elementals) so really, the only creatures you'll actually Stun would be Fey, Humanoids (which depends on their class) and Monstrous Humanoids. That's not a lot of creatures.....re: White Raven Tactics As written, this is just a problematic manoeuver. I found the best way to keep it in control is to rule "An ally can only be subject to this manoeuver once per encounter".</blockquote>

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