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<blockquote data-quote="AllisterH" data-source="post: 3669080" data-attributes="member: 51325"><p><strong>re: Ease of brokenness</strong></p><p></p><p>I do think Cameron has a point in a round about way though. There should be a question as to how EASY it is to break something that should determine its effectivenee. Take Warmaster's Charge vs Swooping Dragon Strike.</p><p></p><p>WMC to break, requires a hell of a lot more effort on the part of the player (and it also requires help on the part of the rest of the players in his party) AND luck to get in the realms of "BROKEN" </p><p></p><p>Compare with SDS which admittedly can be done by just taking options from the core books.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>re: Non-core interaction and brokenness</strong></p><p></p><p>I don't think a feature be it a spell/feat/class should be called broken if it requires the use of other non-core material. Take Power Attack for example. Unlike Combat Expertise, PA isn't capped. Using just core material though, you would rarely exceed a PA value of 5 even for a Half-orc barbarian raging since any iterative attack you have would miss quite frequently. Thus, PA was "balanced" in core.</p><p></p><p>However, a hill giant barbarian/Frenzied berserker can dump easily more than double that PA value compared to a equivalent fighter of the same level. Now then is PA broken or is the unforseen interaction between a non-core race, a core class, a core feat and a non-core prestige class. While WOTC knew PA was deadly (most giants in the MM always get PA), should they honestly think about how broken PA can get when combined with features that they never intended to be combined?</p><p></p><p><strong>re: SDS</strong></p><p>If you must add a SAVE to the manoeuver, it should at least be something that a 13th level character would bother using against the BBEG or his lieutenants and not just the canon fodder. The problem I have with the 10+str+manoeuver level vs Fort is that in play, this ALWAYS gets resisted (actual game experience here). The creatures that don't succeed on the SV are creatures that would get wiped out by the damage already.</p><p></p><p>I mean, let's look at the creature types. Constructs, Elementals, Plants, Oozes and Undead right out are immune to the stun effect. Gaints and Dragons have way above average Cons and have a good Fort save while regular animals (and their dire version), aberrations and magical beasts aren't exactly weak in that department either. Really, the only creatures that will fail the save are Fey in my experience and humanoids in non-melee classes. However, such creatures tend to die already to damage so why bother using it?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AllisterH, post: 3669080, member: 51325"] [B]re: Ease of brokenness[/B] I do think Cameron has a point in a round about way though. There should be a question as to how EASY it is to break something that should determine its effectivenee. Take Warmaster's Charge vs Swooping Dragon Strike. WMC to break, requires a hell of a lot more effort on the part of the player (and it also requires help on the part of the rest of the players in his party) AND luck to get in the realms of "BROKEN" Compare with SDS which admittedly can be done by just taking options from the core books. [B]re: Non-core interaction and brokenness[/B] I don't think a feature be it a spell/feat/class should be called broken if it requires the use of other non-core material. Take Power Attack for example. Unlike Combat Expertise, PA isn't capped. Using just core material though, you would rarely exceed a PA value of 5 even for a Half-orc barbarian raging since any iterative attack you have would miss quite frequently. Thus, PA was "balanced" in core. However, a hill giant barbarian/Frenzied berserker can dump easily more than double that PA value compared to a equivalent fighter of the same level. Now then is PA broken or is the unforseen interaction between a non-core race, a core class, a core feat and a non-core prestige class. While WOTC knew PA was deadly (most giants in the MM always get PA), should they honestly think about how broken PA can get when combined with features that they never intended to be combined? [B]re: SDS[/B] If you must add a SAVE to the manoeuver, it should at least be something that a 13th level character would bother using against the BBEG or his lieutenants and not just the canon fodder. The problem I have with the 10+str+manoeuver level vs Fort is that in play, this ALWAYS gets resisted (actual game experience here). The creatures that don't succeed on the SV are creatures that would get wiped out by the damage already. I mean, let's look at the creature types. Constructs, Elementals, Plants, Oozes and Undead right out are immune to the stun effect. Gaints and Dragons have way above average Cons and have a good Fort save while regular animals (and their dire version), aberrations and magical beasts aren't exactly weak in that department either. Really, the only creatures that will fail the save are Fey in my experience and humanoids in non-melee classes. However, such creatures tend to die already to damage so why bother using it? [/QUOTE]
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