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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1471550" data-attributes="member: 3146">Huh? Ability boosting items don't make every fighter or every cleric identical. The bruiser who started with an 18 strength and 6 int, 8 wis, 6 charisma will be a bruiser with a 28 strength (+4 stat boosts, +6 belt) at 16th level with statboosting items. The finesse fighter who started with a 15 strength, a decent dex, and a 13 int will probably be a finesse tripper with a 23 strength (+4 stat boosts, +6 belt) at 16th level with statboosting items.Similarly, the self-buffing melee cleric may start out with a 14 strength and 15 wisdom and, at 16th level, have an 18 strength (+4 belt) and 23 wisdom (+4 stat bumps, +4 periapt) at 16th level. (Or he might have 18 strength (+4 belt), 19 wisdom (+4 stat bumps), and 20 con (+6 amulet) at 16th level). The spellcasting focussed cleric is likely to have a 10-14 strength (+nothing because all he needs to do is carry his armor without being heavily encumbered) and a 27 wisdom (17 +4 stat bumps, +6 periapt) at 16th level. The characters don't look remotely alike. On the other hand, if you substitute for statboosts by allowing extremely high base stats (let's say 42 or 54 point buy), then all of the characters will start to look alike because it's pretty easy to max out the stats that certain character concepts need. The brute fighter will have 18 strength, 12 dex, 18 con, 10 int, 12 wis, 8 charisma on 42 points and on 54, he'll go up to 18 strength, 16 dex, 18 con, 12 int, 14 wis, 8 cha. The finesse fighter will go up to 18 strength, 14 dex, 16 con, 14 int, 12 wis, 8 charisma at 42 points and 18 strength, 16 dex, 18 con, 14 int, 12 wis, 8 cha at 54 points. At that point, he doesn't look very different from the brute does he?I still don't think there was any inherent problem with the 3.0 buffs. They didn't so much make high ability scores commonplace as change the level of variability with ability scores. 8th level characters might have 14 to 27 strengths depending upon how they were designed and what magic was operating. In 3.5, the 8th level fighter might have between 16 and 24 strength--a much more narrow range.I disagree on the necessity of daily buffs in 3.0 A character could responsibly pursue strategies that minimized or did not use them at all. (A hasted wizard throwing 2 glitterdusts per round could be as effective as one who cast Cat's Grace four times and at higher levels, 2 enervations per round, could be as effective as two empowered bull's strengths. Such strategies were more effective than buffing over one or two fights and became less effective than buffing over a long series of fights).Anyway, I don't think there's any such general principle that buffs should take place in adventures rather than before them. Spells like Detect Scrying, Contingency, Mage Armor, Energy Buffer, Nondetection, Misdirection, Undetectable Alignment,  Mind Blank, False Vision, Protection from Arrows, False Life, etc are generally cast before adventures--and indeed derive most of their benefit from the fact that they can be continuously in effect--and I don't think anyone really has a problem with that. The stat-buff spells don't seem so different to me.</blockquote>

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