Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Keep On The Borderline
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7586591" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>When I've run it, it becomes a simple process of putting a pair of fighters with plate and shield (or chain and shield if you go after the kobolds first) into a 10' wide corridor (or better yet a doorway), such that no more than a couple of kobolds can face the party at a time, and then regardless of how many attacks they are facing, the kobold need nearly a 20 to hit the party, while the party can rather easily hit the kobolds in return and generally lethally if they do. Also, remember, we generally started with a large party of 8-12 characters (2 per player), plus henchmen, dogs, and men-at-arms hirelings. So, yeah, you can win those fights with even low level characters, but they are a nightmare of tedium to go through because its just dice grindy at that point.</p><p></p><p>And it doesn't really let up. Pretty much every fight in the whole module is like that. There is a fight with 20 skeletons and 20 zombies as pretty much the climax of the adventure in the Temple.</p><p></p><p>This is pretty typical of Gygax, in that Gygax is expecting 12 players who are all former wargamers at his table, and thinking of D&D in part as a tactical wargame generation device. You see the same thing in the G series and the same thing in the WG4 and the same thing with the bandits in the moat house in T1, with a mass combat being a big part of the game, and the players expected to adopt hit and run commando tactics, make generous use of flaming oil, and to wear down the foes by fleeing and returning multiple times if needed. </p><p></p><p>And for me, the real problem here is even if you are claiming maps and stat blocks and encounters are the really valuable part of a module, and the really hard part of a module, the problem is that none of this stuff is really even that good, either by the standards of the day or Gygax's own best work. I enjoyed it as a kid, but only in the same way that I can remember playing the card game 'war' as a kid. Monotony meant different things to me then.</p><p></p><p>And back to the incoherence part of it, in the worst of Gygax designs what you see is that the stronghold of the monsters is more or less entirely working against them. Those 10' wide corridors and guard rooms that the monsters defend are their own death trap. If they just sallied forth from their lair and surrounded the party on open ground, they'd probably win. In the same way, if the frost giants in the glacier rift, just sallied forth from their glacier rift, they'd easily overwhelm the PC party. But Gygax is designing the terrain so that if the PC's fight it in the intended manner with the monsters being stupid, then with "clever play" like making use of chokepoints and doorways, then the valiant party will get through it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7586591, member: 4937"] When I've run it, it becomes a simple process of putting a pair of fighters with plate and shield (or chain and shield if you go after the kobolds first) into a 10' wide corridor (or better yet a doorway), such that no more than a couple of kobolds can face the party at a time, and then regardless of how many attacks they are facing, the kobold need nearly a 20 to hit the party, while the party can rather easily hit the kobolds in return and generally lethally if they do. Also, remember, we generally started with a large party of 8-12 characters (2 per player), plus henchmen, dogs, and men-at-arms hirelings. So, yeah, you can win those fights with even low level characters, but they are a nightmare of tedium to go through because its just dice grindy at that point. And it doesn't really let up. Pretty much every fight in the whole module is like that. There is a fight with 20 skeletons and 20 zombies as pretty much the climax of the adventure in the Temple. This is pretty typical of Gygax, in that Gygax is expecting 12 players who are all former wargamers at his table, and thinking of D&D in part as a tactical wargame generation device. You see the same thing in the G series and the same thing in the WG4 and the same thing with the bandits in the moat house in T1, with a mass combat being a big part of the game, and the players expected to adopt hit and run commando tactics, make generous use of flaming oil, and to wear down the foes by fleeing and returning multiple times if needed. And for me, the real problem here is even if you are claiming maps and stat blocks and encounters are the really valuable part of a module, and the really hard part of a module, the problem is that none of this stuff is really even that good, either by the standards of the day or Gygax's own best work. I enjoyed it as a kid, but only in the same way that I can remember playing the card game 'war' as a kid. Monotony meant different things to me then. And back to the incoherence part of it, in the worst of Gygax designs what you see is that the stronghold of the monsters is more or less entirely working against them. Those 10' wide corridors and guard rooms that the monsters defend are their own death trap. If they just sallied forth from their lair and surrounded the party on open ground, they'd probably win. In the same way, if the frost giants in the glacier rift, just sallied forth from their glacier rift, they'd easily overwhelm the PC party. But Gygax is designing the terrain so that if the PC's fight it in the intended manner with the monsters being stupid, then with "clever play" like making use of chokepoints and doorways, then the valiant party will get through it. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Keep On The Borderline
Top