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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7587969" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>And you will continue to pretend that I'm cherry picking quotes and taking those quotes out of context (how?) despite the fact that I've now quoted nearly everyone on your self-selected list that is supposed to justify how great the module is, and there is a consistent theme of apologizing to some extent for the selection based on the self-evident problems of the module. </p><p></p><p>And further more, you will pretend to claim that I'm the one ignoring you and failing to engage with your ideas, and not you ignoring me and failing to engage with my ideas, despite the fact that your posts have a notable lack of question marks in them, that my posts notably do address your content while you pointedly ignore mine, and that to a large extent your not even discussing this - you think that it's sufficient to dismiss what I'm saying by simply being insulting. </p><p></p><p>You claim that I just don't get "preferences" and that I just don't get how this is all subjective, but you don't apply that same idea as rigorously to your own thinking.</p><p></p><p>There has been a consistent attack on me from the beginning by pretty much everyone defending this module that the problem is that I'm just not a very good DM, or at the least, that I'm just not the sort of DM that can appreciate this module because I'm not creative enough, or I lack the ability to flesh out ideas, or that I require an adventure to hold my hand and I can't improvise, or some general such nonsense as that, as if there was any one style of module that I preferred in the first place and I didn't praise open ended modules as highly as sandboxes or what not. The general approach to engaging with me is to say that it just takes a different sort of DM that I am to appreciate the module, with the considerable implication being that this is a "thinking man's module" and that old school players appreciated it more because they were better able to improvise their own content, and that I just don't "get" B2.</p><p></p><p>Ok, so this is 14 year old me's take on the module, back in the mid 80's. The reason that everyone is fighting over the "Caves of Chaos" is that there is a gold mine controlled by the evil cult. The Castallan is charged with recovering that gold mine, and being a good commander what he really wants is scouting information regarding the caves before he goes in with his troops. He's willing to let mercenaries haul treasure out of the caves, because he knows that his boss is going to make a fortune once control of the caves is returned to the forces of Law. Meanwhile, the Cult has been encouraging tribes to 'audition' for membership in the inner circle of the cult by promising gold to tribes that most prove their worth, cause a plethora of small bandit tribes of various to come try their fortune. The Cult has been essentially running gladiatorial games where champions of the tribes test their mettle in bloodsport to prove they are worthy of entering the Cult's inner sanctum. The victors are then promoted and rewarded while the losing tribes become slaves in the Cult's gold mines. What the victors don't know is that this is mostly a deception. The Cult could always use more slaves, but already has plenty of overseers for its slaves. The truth is the inner sanctum is lead by a mad wizard tainted by the forces of chaos who is by foul magic selectively breeding a race of supergoons. It's this race of mutants in the depths (down that corridor that is blocked on the map) that is the true threat to the Keep, not the pathetic bands found in the surface caves (which even collectively are no real threat to the Keep). Once enough of these monstrosities have been created, they'll emerge through the secret entrance in the Caves of the Unknown (I had no access to B1) and assault the Keep with the battering ram and siege towers that the Bandits (actually cult members) have been secretly preparing while watching the Keep.</p><p></p><p>Cool enough? The problem that I had with this, even as a 14 year old, is that I didn't really have access to any mass combat rules, and I was beginning to question if not the Gygaxian dungeon then at least the Gygaxian "fortification", and all this work to make the scenario make sense, and all the additional work implied by it to modify the existing map and add two whole new levels to it, just felt a whole lot less worthwhile than writing my new and original stuff for myself or to run out of the box some of the new exciting content that just seemed to need less reworking that I was now being exposed to. And every time I've thought of reworking B2 into something that meets my own standards, I've found myself running into the same thoughts - this might work but its just not worth it. </p><p></p><p>One area of Gygaxian design that for me has just not aged well at all are these scenarios involving masses of poorly coordinated foes that restrict themselves in a confined area, and then the PC's are supposed to wade through masses of near identical opponents using hit and run tactics and their superior tactical flexibility and ability to recover to wear down the opponent through attrition.</p><p></p><p>And the problem I have with that it's not just not that fun more than once, and certainly not back to back to back.</p><p></p><p>By comparison, at 12 we didn't really engage with the women and children problem much at all. If they fought us, we fought them, and if they didn't they were free to leave as long as they didn't take the treasure. When I ran B2, I ran combatants as combatants and the player's let noncombatants skirt out the door. I don't think we had any sense that this was a problem of some sort nor did the players feel like they needed to kill everything. I don't really understand why that of all things hasn't aged well. It wasn't until we were like 15 that it occurred to anyone, "Yeah, we just slaughtered their mates and fathers right in front of their eyes, and now what do we do?", and when that happened it wasn't "problematic", it felt like we'd grown up and were playing a more mature game. And that didn't happen running B2, but running an admittedly primitive dungeon scenario of my own invention.</p><p></p><p>But if you are done, please be done.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7587969, member: 4937"] And you will continue to pretend that I'm cherry picking quotes and taking those quotes out of context (how?) despite the fact that I've now quoted nearly everyone on your self-selected list that is supposed to justify how great the module is, and there is a consistent theme of apologizing to some extent for the selection based on the self-evident problems of the module. And further more, you will pretend to claim that I'm the one ignoring you and failing to engage with your ideas, and not you ignoring me and failing to engage with my ideas, despite the fact that your posts have a notable lack of question marks in them, that my posts notably do address your content while you pointedly ignore mine, and that to a large extent your not even discussing this - you think that it's sufficient to dismiss what I'm saying by simply being insulting. You claim that I just don't get "preferences" and that I just don't get how this is all subjective, but you don't apply that same idea as rigorously to your own thinking. There has been a consistent attack on me from the beginning by pretty much everyone defending this module that the problem is that I'm just not a very good DM, or at the least, that I'm just not the sort of DM that can appreciate this module because I'm not creative enough, or I lack the ability to flesh out ideas, or that I require an adventure to hold my hand and I can't improvise, or some general such nonsense as that, as if there was any one style of module that I preferred in the first place and I didn't praise open ended modules as highly as sandboxes or what not. The general approach to engaging with me is to say that it just takes a different sort of DM that I am to appreciate the module, with the considerable implication being that this is a "thinking man's module" and that old school players appreciated it more because they were better able to improvise their own content, and that I just don't "get" B2. Ok, so this is 14 year old me's take on the module, back in the mid 80's. The reason that everyone is fighting over the "Caves of Chaos" is that there is a gold mine controlled by the evil cult. The Castallan is charged with recovering that gold mine, and being a good commander what he really wants is scouting information regarding the caves before he goes in with his troops. He's willing to let mercenaries haul treasure out of the caves, because he knows that his boss is going to make a fortune once control of the caves is returned to the forces of Law. Meanwhile, the Cult has been encouraging tribes to 'audition' for membership in the inner circle of the cult by promising gold to tribes that most prove their worth, cause a plethora of small bandit tribes of various to come try their fortune. The Cult has been essentially running gladiatorial games where champions of the tribes test their mettle in bloodsport to prove they are worthy of entering the Cult's inner sanctum. The victors are then promoted and rewarded while the losing tribes become slaves in the Cult's gold mines. What the victors don't know is that this is mostly a deception. The Cult could always use more slaves, but already has plenty of overseers for its slaves. The truth is the inner sanctum is lead by a mad wizard tainted by the forces of chaos who is by foul magic selectively breeding a race of supergoons. It's this race of mutants in the depths (down that corridor that is blocked on the map) that is the true threat to the Keep, not the pathetic bands found in the surface caves (which even collectively are no real threat to the Keep). Once enough of these monstrosities have been created, they'll emerge through the secret entrance in the Caves of the Unknown (I had no access to B1) and assault the Keep with the battering ram and siege towers that the Bandits (actually cult members) have been secretly preparing while watching the Keep. Cool enough? The problem that I had with this, even as a 14 year old, is that I didn't really have access to any mass combat rules, and I was beginning to question if not the Gygaxian dungeon then at least the Gygaxian "fortification", and all this work to make the scenario make sense, and all the additional work implied by it to modify the existing map and add two whole new levels to it, just felt a whole lot less worthwhile than writing my new and original stuff for myself or to run out of the box some of the new exciting content that just seemed to need less reworking that I was now being exposed to. And every time I've thought of reworking B2 into something that meets my own standards, I've found myself running into the same thoughts - this might work but its just not worth it. One area of Gygaxian design that for me has just not aged well at all are these scenarios involving masses of poorly coordinated foes that restrict themselves in a confined area, and then the PC's are supposed to wade through masses of near identical opponents using hit and run tactics and their superior tactical flexibility and ability to recover to wear down the opponent through attrition. And the problem I have with that it's not just not that fun more than once, and certainly not back to back to back. By comparison, at 12 we didn't really engage with the women and children problem much at all. If they fought us, we fought them, and if they didn't they were free to leave as long as they didn't take the treasure. When I ran B2, I ran combatants as combatants and the player's let noncombatants skirt out the door. I don't think we had any sense that this was a problem of some sort nor did the players feel like they needed to kill everything. I don't really understand why that of all things hasn't aged well. It wasn't until we were like 15 that it occurred to anyone, "Yeah, we just slaughtered their mates and fathers right in front of their eyes, and now what do we do?", and when that happened it wasn't "problematic", it felt like we'd grown up and were playing a more mature game. And that didn't happen running B2, but running an admittedly primitive dungeon scenario of my own invention. But if you are done, please be done. [/QUOTE]
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