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<blockquote data-quote="Infiniti2000" data-source="post: 4713970" data-attributes="member: 31734">I also got a TPK, twice.&nbsp; The second time was essentially a mulligan with the players all knowing everything about the encounter.&nbsp; I even asked them during the encounter what they thought the kobolds would do at any one point, so it certainly wasn't me playing the kobold's smart.&nbsp; The PCs had every advantage, used all their powers and still failed.The PCs are: dragonborn warlord, human paladin, eladrin rogue, eladrin wizard, and dwarven fighter.They tried sneaking up both times, with the rogue well out in front.&nbsp; Both times, the slinger-dude managed to get to the back of the pack and then fled inside when his minions got wasted.&nbsp; This was pretty much the killer both times because as soon as the inside is alerted, the PCs have no chance.&nbsp; I really can't fathom the PCs winning without a great amount of luck or a totally different party composition.&nbsp; Even then, I refuse to believe that my group's composition is so bad as to warrant complete failure.&nbsp; They certainly didn't choose poorly on actions and they didn't roll any worse, or better, than the bad guys.&nbsp; And, they helped adjudicate the bad guy's actions, sometimes recommending flight and sometimes not (i.e. not always a tactically sound decision).I fully believe that the only ways for the PCs to win this fight are one or more of the following:1. Supreme luck2. Really really really bad decisions on the bad guys, such as always trying to provoke OA3. Cheating#1 would work by somehow miraculously killing all the guards outside.&nbsp; I refuse to say that the kobolds would fight to the death with so many allies inside.&nbsp; To kill everyone outside, the heroes have to target the non-minions first.&nbsp; That way, they'll be able to kill the minions on their escape routes.&nbsp; Even then, it's really iffy because the lair is so close, usually just a single turn (shift, double move).&nbsp; No, it's simply impossible.Kill Irontooth in a couple of rounds?&nbsp; Not possible unless everyone in the party was on top of him.&nbsp; Where were all the other bad guys?This is simply a bad encounter.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Infiniti2000, post: 4713970, member: 31734"] I also got a TPK, twice. The second time was essentially a mulligan with the players all knowing everything about the encounter. I even asked them during the encounter what they thought the kobolds would do at any one point, so it certainly wasn't me playing the kobold's smart. The PCs had every advantage, used all their powers and still failed. The PCs are: dragonborn warlord, human paladin, eladrin rogue, eladrin wizard, and dwarven fighter. They tried sneaking up both times, with the rogue well out in front. Both times, the slinger-dude managed to get to the back of the pack and then fled inside when his minions got wasted. This was pretty much the killer both times because as soon as the inside is alerted, the PCs have no chance. I really can't fathom the PCs winning without a great amount of luck or a totally different party composition. Even then, I refuse to believe that my group's composition is so bad as to warrant complete failure. They certainly didn't choose poorly on actions and they didn't roll any worse, or better, than the bad guys. And, they helped adjudicate the bad guy's actions, sometimes recommending flight and sometimes not (i.e. not always a tactically sound decision). I fully believe that the only ways for the PCs to win this fight are one or more of the following: 1. Supreme luck 2. Really really really bad decisions on the bad guys, such as always trying to provoke OA 3. Cheating #1 would work by somehow miraculously killing all the guards outside. I refuse to say that the kobolds would fight to the death with so many allies inside. To kill everyone outside, the heroes have to target the non-minions first. That way, they'll be able to kill the minions on their escape routes. Even then, it's really iffy because the lair is so close, usually just a single turn (shift, double move). No, it's simply impossible. Kill Irontooth in a couple of rounds? Not possible unless everyone in the party was on top of him. Where were all the other bad guys? This is simply a bad encounter. [/QUOTE]

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