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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dr. Strangemonkey" data-source="post: 4122671" data-attributes="member: 6533">I'm not entirely sure I buy even this narrower version of the 'more restrictions' argument.  From what we've seen all of the 'focus' elements of the character classes are bonuses.  I would buy the restricted roles argument if there were corresponding negatives but they don't seem to be there.  Or at least no more so than there were in 3E, you still have to have some sort of membership in a magic using class to be a spellcaster and so forth.As such the classes just seem to be adding options.  Now I can understand not wanting a car with four wheel drive.  But four wheel drive comes with lots of design problems like heavier maintenance and so forth.  Having free training in stealth doesn't seem like it comes with any drawbacks.  It's just a feature you might not use.The thing is, I think 4E, even from the preview materials we have seen thus far, has made the idea of class from 2E and 3X functionally meaningless.  Look at it in light of the new material the old class concepts seemed to be constraints you built your character against.  4e and 1e on the other hand, use classes as structures that give your character abilities.  This is a little unfair since 3X also had some power structure granting classes like the Monk, but the basic point is that even though I think 4E is not a radical departure from 3X in most ways you can't think of class as occupying the same position in character creation that it used to.To use an unfavorable comparison: 3E classes=straight jackets 4E classes=power armor.  Both are restrictive. The difference is that no matter how soft and yielding the straight jacket may seem it isn't doing anything for you other than keeping you in line.The character comes before the class now.  From the novice player's perspective we are back to 1E, you look through the classes, read the builds, and then pick the cool thing you'd like to do.  This is great for new players, just like 1E was.From the advanced player's perspective the builds guide you to the class.  You pick what you do and then you pick the class that best supports that.  Or, being an advanced player, you modify/create your own class that does.  And because you have the roles to guide you it's lot easier to create a class that is neither overpowered nor useless. Thus Mike Mearls on classless gaming and the DMG.And I happen to think that's awesome.I understand that if you're use to thinking in terms of classes rather than in terms of characters this approach might seem frustrating, Rogue just doesn't mean what it use to mean.  In retrospect I have no idea what rogue was supposed to mean aside from skill monkey, but there you are.</blockquote>

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