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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Remathilis" data-source="post: 4123094" data-attributes="member: 7635">See, I look at it like this.There was always an illusion that all classes had specific niches; a fighter was the best at combat, a wizard was good at attack magic and problem solving, a cleric is for healing and defense, a rogue for sneakery and traps. All other classes (paladin, ranger, druid, etc) were combinations of these elements. (We'll ignore them for now). However, you had the four basic monster food groups. Call 'em whatever you want: tank, nuker, healer, scout. The point was; if you chose one of them, you were supposed to be the "best" at that classes given area.It never worked like that in D&D. Ever.A cleric could (and often did) out fight a fighter thanks to buff spells (bulls str, aid, divine power, etc.) Furthermore, being in control of healing meant he had his HP + his potential hp healed as a hp pool, which at almost every level was more than any other class. A cleric could, (using supplements and proper domain choices) out nuke a wizard, casting divine retribution, flame strike, cometfall, holy word, and other powerful evocations, all while wearing full plate. Hence, a cleric could out fighter a fighter, and probably out wizard a wizard. By the same token, a wizard with all the right spells (invisibility, knock, true-seeing) out-rogued a rogue. He could handle most of a rogue's list of skills by by-passing the skill system with auto-win spells (often conveniently kept in scrolls or wands). And sneak attack vs ANY wizard dps spell? Ha. Assuming you played a wizard intelligently, the only reason to have a rogue was trap detection (thats what summon monster I was invented for, I'd wager). Sorcerers (and other spontaneous casters) did an even better job with the right spell selection and access to wands.In fact, the optimum D&D party was not ftr/wiz/rog/clr, but clr (heal), clr (war), clr (blast), wiz (scout). Effectively, its the Jedi syndrome; there is no reason to play anything else because anything else is sub-optimal. 4e, by giving every SOME access to other people's playground BUT keeping the best stuff for the proper roles moves a BIG step toward fixing this. A cleric cannot rule over a fighter by spell selection; he can't even really mimic his main abilities beyond hit/damage. A wizard will no longer make skills like hide, climb, and open lock obsolete at 3rd level. As Hellcow said, second wind won't replace the need for a cleric, nor will having untrained skill improvement really rival dedicated skill user (as a player of SAGA, I can attest to both these points. Your second wind is a "oh %*@!" power, not a good source of healing, and you still want the guy whose trained/focused making your checks, whenever possible.)Will it work? I hope so.</blockquote>

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