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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lizard" data-source="post: 4123137" data-attributes="member: 1054">True -- you can't build a 'totally non combat' character with the core classes (and trying to build a 'non combat fighter' strikes me more as an exercise in masochism than an attempt to make a believable character). What I was referring to is that many classes -- especially rogues, bards, and casters -- had the ability to trade off combat or non-combat (but still useful) skills. Pick Diplomacy or Sleight Of Hand? Pick 'utility' spells or 'nuke' spells? This option made the non-combat character more unique; perhaps he lagged a bit in damage output, but there were things he could do no one else could. From what I've seen of 4e, there are no -- or very few -- such choices. The bulk of one's abilites come from class powers, and feat picks have a relatively minor impact. While this makes some character concepts that 3e handled poorly much easier -- the noble-born fighter is the canonical example -- it also seems to punish those who liked to define their character by their out-of-combat skills. 4e's non-combat-encounter system, what I've seen of it, lets "everyone participate" by virtue of making almost any skill a "non combat skill", if you can figure out a way to convince the DM to let you solve a riddle via Athletics or learn about the local gang structure via Nature.(I do like the idea that casters shouldn't be able to nullify the utility of non-casters, but is turning them into purely mobile artillery the best way to meet this design goal? While we haven't see high level wizards, we HAVE seen a very broad range of spells, and pretty much all of them are variations on 'inflict Y condition on X targets'. While fighters and rogues have gotten much richer combat options, casters seem to be seriously impoverished.)(My personal preference would be to make spells like knock, invisibility, etc, act as skill check bonuses, capped at the target's ranks. So instead of knock, you'd have 'Mystic Lockpicks', which add +caster level to any Open Lock check, maxed at the ranks the target had in Open Lock. So you'd cast it on the thief, and he'd do his thing. But that's neither here nor there.)I do acknowledge I'm operating on incomplete information -- we've seen, what 10-20 pages of rules out of about 600? -- and people who've actually played the game report different experiences. But it's hard to see how we get from here to there, from a game which seems much more constrained and limited than 3e to one which is actually broader and better.</blockquote>

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