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Keith Baker on 4E! (The Hellcow responds!)
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<blockquote data-quote="Hellcow" data-source="post: 4125360" data-attributes="member: 15800"><p>You're right... and they DO (as shown by the three characters in that group I described with significant social talents). Not a talent TREE (and I can't speak to rules in any case) but what I've been saying all along is that it is possible for characters to shine in noncombat situations and that the system actually gives more weight to non-combat encounters. It's possible to make a fighter who's a diplomat; unless he's built up his Charisma he may not be the world's greatest diplomat, but a 1st-level 4E fighter can actually be a better diplomat than a 1st-level 3E fighter. </p><p></p><p>Likewise, there's nothing about the fighter class that requires you to wear heavy armor. The classic tank high-Strength and Constitution fighter is an easy build, but you could choose to make a high-Dex build instead, and there are powers that support this; though you might be better off making that character a ranger instead. </p><p></p><p>The fighter may not be as good a diplomat as the cleric (though he could be, depending on what you do). But you CAN MAKE a diplomatic fighter. Yes, the system sucks when it comes to making Stephen Hawking as a PC - a character who is completely lopsided. It's intended to provide balance; each character has something to offer in battle, and something to offer out of battle, not "I offer nothing in battle, but twice as much out of it". Given that the system itself is intended to encourage a more even distribution of combat and noncombat challenges, I think this was the right way to go. </p><p></p><p>I will say that I am biased in this in that I love Hero and played the heck out of 1E Fantasy Hero in high school. I've never expected D&D to become Hero. If I want to play the truly unusual character who doesn't fit any sort of D&D role - the crippled sage who's stuck in a magical wheelchair - I'll play FH. In fact, I've played characters not far from that in FH. When I play D&D, I'll play a dwarf fighter. For me, D&D has always been a game with strong class roles - Fighter-Cleric-Thief-Magic User. It doesn't need to become Fantasy Hero 35 years later... among other things because I can still play Fantasy Hero, and I WILL play Fantasy Hero when I want that style of game. For me, 4E does step back a little to some of those classic archetypes - although again, it still leaves more than enough room for the warlock archaeologist, the changeling priest trying to learn about corruption through personal experience, the fighter haunted by a brutal past and struggling for redemption, the warlord exiled for his soft-hearted views, and so on, and so on. Every fighter may clearly serve the party role of defender - but again, any three fighters can be very different from one another - far more so than you'd get in 1E. So I like that 4E is essentially still an evolution of <em>D&D</em>; when I want truly open character design and to step fully away from class roles, I'll play Fantasy Hero... as I've done for twenty years now.</p><p></p><p>Anyhow, now I'm actually heading out on travels and won't be checking the boards, so I really am signing off. Have fun!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hellcow, post: 4125360, member: 15800"] You're right... and they DO (as shown by the three characters in that group I described with significant social talents). Not a talent TREE (and I can't speak to rules in any case) but what I've been saying all along is that it is possible for characters to shine in noncombat situations and that the system actually gives more weight to non-combat encounters. It's possible to make a fighter who's a diplomat; unless he's built up his Charisma he may not be the world's greatest diplomat, but a 1st-level 4E fighter can actually be a better diplomat than a 1st-level 3E fighter. Likewise, there's nothing about the fighter class that requires you to wear heavy armor. The classic tank high-Strength and Constitution fighter is an easy build, but you could choose to make a high-Dex build instead, and there are powers that support this; though you might be better off making that character a ranger instead. The fighter may not be as good a diplomat as the cleric (though he could be, depending on what you do). But you CAN MAKE a diplomatic fighter. Yes, the system sucks when it comes to making Stephen Hawking as a PC - a character who is completely lopsided. It's intended to provide balance; each character has something to offer in battle, and something to offer out of battle, not "I offer nothing in battle, but twice as much out of it". Given that the system itself is intended to encourage a more even distribution of combat and noncombat challenges, I think this was the right way to go. I will say that I am biased in this in that I love Hero and played the heck out of 1E Fantasy Hero in high school. I've never expected D&D to become Hero. If I want to play the truly unusual character who doesn't fit any sort of D&D role - the crippled sage who's stuck in a magical wheelchair - I'll play FH. In fact, I've played characters not far from that in FH. When I play D&D, I'll play a dwarf fighter. For me, D&D has always been a game with strong class roles - Fighter-Cleric-Thief-Magic User. It doesn't need to become Fantasy Hero 35 years later... among other things because I can still play Fantasy Hero, and I WILL play Fantasy Hero when I want that style of game. For me, 4E does step back a little to some of those classic archetypes - although again, it still leaves more than enough room for the warlock archaeologist, the changeling priest trying to learn about corruption through personal experience, the fighter haunted by a brutal past and struggling for redemption, the warlord exiled for his soft-hearted views, and so on, and so on. Every fighter may clearly serve the party role of defender - but again, any three fighters can be very different from one another - far more so than you'd get in 1E. So I like that 4E is essentially still an evolution of [i]D&D[/i]; when I want truly open character design and to step fully away from class roles, I'll play Fantasy Hero... as I've done for twenty years now. Anyhow, now I'm actually heading out on travels and won't be checking the boards, so I really am signing off. Have fun! [/QUOTE]
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