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Keith Baker on 4E! (The Hellcow responds!)
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<blockquote data-quote="Hamburger Mary" data-source="post: 4125765" data-attributes="member: 17363"><p>Looking to noncombat, as a playtester, this isn't true at all. </p><p></p><p>In 4E, at 2nd level, by my calculations skill values ranges from +0 to +15 (assuming an ability score range of 8 to 18). As that's divisible by 5, it's easy to use the 1-5 scale. The average person - no skill training, average ability score - will have a rank 1 on that scale - a modifier of +3 or below. In order to get to "3 out of 5" - a value of +9 - you'll need to have skill training and a decent statistic. </p><p></p><p>I think you're assuming these bland characters that are sort of equally good in all things. COMBAT is far more balanced. It's hard to make a character who just sucks at combat - though in all likelihood he WILL suck at a certain ASPECT of combat (melee, ranged, etc), because that's what class roles are about; each class has a role. And things like feats are a case where you have to choose whether to get abilities that will help you in combat or those that will help you out of it; it is the place where you shift the balance. To get to a ranking of 5 on that scale of one to five, a diplomat will need to use feats.</p><p></p><p>So you will have trouble making the crippled sage. But the idea that you never make ANY choice between combat or noncombat ability, that you can't make a character who is a true specialist in a noncombat area, simply isn't true. That 5/5 diplomat WILL be able to fight (though to get that score, she had to max her Charisma and devote feats to it). But she is a true master of Diplomacy - compared to the untrained Cha 8 fighter who has a +0 Diplomacy. </p><p></p><p>So this whole "All characters are at a 3 of 5" just isn't true. You pick your specialties, both in and out of combat, and you shine in those areas. But you're not average at all things. And if you want to go nuts on one thing, feats like Skill Focus still let you do that. </p><p></p><p>It's still not your system, Nutluck. I get that. It's not designed to let you play a commoner - though again, all you need to do to do that is to remove the class abilities from your class. But it's also not the "absolutely bland characters" system you seem to think.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hamburger Mary, post: 4125765, member: 17363"] Looking to noncombat, as a playtester, this isn't true at all. In 4E, at 2nd level, by my calculations skill values ranges from +0 to +15 (assuming an ability score range of 8 to 18). As that's divisible by 5, it's easy to use the 1-5 scale. The average person - no skill training, average ability score - will have a rank 1 on that scale - a modifier of +3 or below. In order to get to "3 out of 5" - a value of +9 - you'll need to have skill training and a decent statistic. I think you're assuming these bland characters that are sort of equally good in all things. COMBAT is far more balanced. It's hard to make a character who just sucks at combat - though in all likelihood he WILL suck at a certain ASPECT of combat (melee, ranged, etc), because that's what class roles are about; each class has a role. And things like feats are a case where you have to choose whether to get abilities that will help you in combat or those that will help you out of it; it is the place where you shift the balance. To get to a ranking of 5 on that scale of one to five, a diplomat will need to use feats. So you will have trouble making the crippled sage. But the idea that you never make ANY choice between combat or noncombat ability, that you can't make a character who is a true specialist in a noncombat area, simply isn't true. That 5/5 diplomat WILL be able to fight (though to get that score, she had to max her Charisma and devote feats to it). But she is a true master of Diplomacy - compared to the untrained Cha 8 fighter who has a +0 Diplomacy. So this whole "All characters are at a 3 of 5" just isn't true. You pick your specialties, both in and out of combat, and you shine in those areas. But you're not average at all things. And if you want to go nuts on one thing, feats like Skill Focus still let you do that. It's still not your system, Nutluck. I get that. It's not designed to let you play a commoner - though again, all you need to do to do that is to remove the class abilities from your class. But it's also not the "absolutely bland characters" system you seem to think. [/QUOTE]
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