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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7743623" data-attributes="member: 4937">To be frank, a lot of this conversation is silly IMO.Ultimately it doesn't matter much for a campaign whether orcs are inherently evil or not.&nbsp; The inherent evil of the orcs is NOT why PC's kill orcs.PC's kill orcs because when they encounter orcs in a traditional game it is universally the case that the orcs are bandits, slavers, and cannibals who are a danger to them, and they continue to assume that they should always kill orcs because they assume that this pattern will hold true for all orcs.&nbsp; And generally speaking, when they make this assumption they are right.&nbsp; Orcs when encountered are universally hostile.&nbsp; Every mayor or farmer they encounter universally truthfully says, &quot;Those orcs are going around killing and taking my stuff, stealing children, raping the women, and torturing people for fun.&nbsp; Please help oh stalwart hero.&quot;&nbsp; At best maybe you can bribe them to leave you alone when your low level but that solution has low utility compared to killing the orcs and taking their stuff because you know they want to kill you and take your stuff.&nbsp;&nbsp; Players aren't being motivated by some abstract idea of whether or not orcs are always evil.&nbsp; They are being motivated by the pragmatic fact that orcs are their enemies.&nbsp;&nbsp; All it would take to put a stop to that is put one orc in a role other than bandit cannibal slaver.&nbsp; Like if the first bar you had in your campaign had a bartender that was an orc and he said, &quot;What'll it be, bub?&quot;, and the orcish bartender had an interesting personality and he was funny and decent, then right then and there the players would stop assuming all orcs are evil.&nbsp;&nbsp; It does absolutely no good to say, &quot;Well in my campaign, orcs aren't universally evil.&quot; if you never put orcs in a complex social situation that suggests you can have a relationship with an orc not based on violence.&nbsp;&nbsp; And if in point of fact, whether the origin of the problem is nature or nurture, if every single orc in your game is a bandit cannibal slaver that tortures things for fun, all the orcs in your game are evil and you aren't really saying much of anything interesting to say, &quot;Well, they aren't inherently evil.&quot;&nbsp; Practically every goblin you'll ever encounter in my campaign has evil alignment.&nbsp; A scarce few are neutral.&nbsp;&nbsp; The rare that are good are probably PCs, because I treat the personhood of goblins as a setting level secret that is in and of itself worthy of running an entire campaign around.&nbsp; But that doesn't preclude having a relationship with that goblin that doesn't revolve around killing it.&nbsp; There are plenty of evil humans in my game as well, but not all of them are doing stuff worthy of death and being stupidly belligerent toward the PCs.&nbsp; But that doesn't make my take on goblins inherently more interesting than having goblins inhuman night predators that torture things for fun and are inherently alien and evil.&nbsp; It's just I've got other things to put in that role, and I nominated goblins for another one.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7743623, member: 4937"] To be frank, a lot of this conversation is silly IMO. Ultimately it doesn't matter much for a campaign whether orcs are inherently evil or not. The inherent evil of the orcs is NOT why PC's kill orcs. PC's kill orcs because when they encounter orcs in a traditional game it is universally the case that the orcs are bandits, slavers, and cannibals who are a danger to them, and they continue to assume that they should always kill orcs because they assume that this pattern will hold true for all orcs. And generally speaking, when they make this assumption they are right. Orcs when encountered are universally hostile. Every mayor or farmer they encounter universally truthfully says, "Those orcs are going around killing and taking my stuff, stealing children, raping the women, and torturing people for fun. Please help oh stalwart hero." At best maybe you can bribe them to leave you alone when your low level but that solution has low utility compared to killing the orcs and taking their stuff because you know they want to kill you and take your stuff. Players aren't being motivated by some abstract idea of whether or not orcs are always evil. They are being motivated by the pragmatic fact that orcs are their enemies. All it would take to put a stop to that is put one orc in a role other than bandit cannibal slaver. Like if the first bar you had in your campaign had a bartender that was an orc and he said, "What'll it be, bub?", and the orcish bartender had an interesting personality and he was funny and decent, then right then and there the players would stop assuming all orcs are evil. It does absolutely no good to say, "Well in my campaign, orcs aren't universally evil." if you never put orcs in a complex social situation that suggests you can have a relationship with an orc not based on violence. And if in point of fact, whether the origin of the problem is nature or nurture, if every single orc in your game is a bandit cannibal slaver that tortures things for fun, all the orcs in your game are evil and you aren't really saying much of anything interesting to say, "Well, they aren't inherently evil." Practically every goblin you'll ever encounter in my campaign has evil alignment. A scarce few are neutral. The rare that are good are probably PCs, because I treat the personhood of goblins as a setting level secret that is in and of itself worthy of running an entire campaign around. But that doesn't preclude having a relationship with that goblin that doesn't revolve around killing it. There are plenty of evil humans in my game as well, but not all of them are doing stuff worthy of death and being stupidly belligerent toward the PCs. But that doesn't make my take on goblins inherently more interesting than having goblins inhuman night predators that torture things for fun and are inherently alien and evil. It's just I've got other things to put in that role, and I nominated goblins for another one. [/QUOTE]

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