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<blockquote data-quote="Tsyr" data-source="post: 816778" data-attributes="member: 354">You're missing the point of my post, though I'm going to respond (In a semi-sarcastic fashion) to that first point anyhow...Remember, according to Doc, if the rule is in the DMG, that's all that matters... the player doesn't have any right to know it. At least, that's the impression I've got from his numerous comments of &quot;All players have a need to know is in the PHB&quot; and similar. Forgive me if I've mis-read those...But on a deeper level, my point is, a certain amount of what one does with his or her character is almost by default meta-gamed... What skills they take at a new level, what feats the take, etc. And what spells they take and memorize. Lemme give an example why I disaprove of this on a deeper level:Say you made a wizard. You're playing, and you're in your first combat... so you cast a ranged damage spell other than magic missle. The DM tells you to make an INT check (????). You do so. You fail the check. The DM rules that your attack spell hit one of your allies instead. Would you be upset? Mind you... I'd like to point out, once again, that this is not a rule in the PHB, so *technicly*, by Doc's arguement, the player doesn't need to know it.I ask because that happened to me about a year ago. Didn't play with that DM again.I'd also like to clarify something: The change itself I don't mind. And in the big scheme of things, even though I don't like it, what Doc did here isn't the end of the world or anything. What I don't like, and where my position stems from, is that the same basic logic can be used to do a lot of things in game. That same way of thinking can lead down a dark path.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tsyr, post: 816778, member: 354"] You're missing the point of my post, though I'm going to respond (In a semi-sarcastic fashion) to that first point anyhow... Remember, according to Doc, if the rule is in the DMG, that's all that matters... the player doesn't have any right to know it. At least, that's the impression I've got from his numerous comments of "All players have a need to know is in the PHB" and similar. Forgive me if I've mis-read those... But on a deeper level, my point is, a certain amount of what one does with his or her character is almost by default meta-gamed... What skills they take at a new level, what feats the take, etc. And what spells they take and memorize. Lemme give an example why I disaprove of this on a deeper level: Say you made a wizard. You're playing, and you're in your first combat... so you cast a ranged damage spell other than magic missle. The DM tells you to make an INT check (????). You do so. You fail the check. The DM rules that your attack spell hit one of your allies instead. Would you be upset? Mind you... I'd like to point out, once again, that this is not a rule in the PHB, so *technicly*, by Doc's arguement, the player doesn't need to know it. I ask because that happened to me about a year ago. Didn't play with that DM again. I'd also like to clarify something: The change itself I don't mind. And in the big scheme of things, even though I don't like it, what Doc did here isn't the end of the world or anything. What I don't like, and where my position stems from, is that the same basic logic can be used to do a lot of things in game. That same way of thinking can lead down a dark path. [/QUOTE]

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