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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Fenris-77" data-source="post: 7932200" data-attributes="member: 6993955">[USER=4937]@Celebrim[/USER] Two quick things. First, I wasn't talking about the difficulty of the actions at all, I was indexing the difficulty that different systems have with those two propositions. The corollary being that different rules systems produce different kinds of propositions, just like different genre conventions produce different propositions, and different player expectations produce different propositions. I wanted to stick to the first item because there's going to be less to disagree about, the rules being more stable from table to table than expectations or actualized play.Second, I was very much not talking about how the proposition is actualized at the table. The whole idea of fictional positioning IMO lands on the harder to quantify side of this topic and I wasn't going there yet. So yeah, in PtbA you do the thing to make the move and it all works more like you describe (or FATE, etc). In many games of D&D the same proposition gets worded in the 3rd person. I want to ignore the differences there, at least to start, and focus on the similarities. The similarities are what I think could be useful in comparing different sets of rules, and even play styles within the same set of rules. Any discussion would also, eventually, have to account for the differences you're talking about, I just wouldn't start there.</blockquote>