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<blockquote data-quote="Salamandyr" data-source="post: 6146911" data-attributes="member: 40233"><p>More and more I'm convinced that the only proper definition of a Mary Sue is "a character the reader doesn't like". I've been guilty of it too, having referred to highly popular Harry Dresden as a Mary Sue in the past.</p><p></p><p>Mary Sue started out as a fan fiction term-Captain Kirk, as omni competent as he is, isn't a Mary Sue; the entire show is written about him. But Yeoman Marley Susan, who upon her appearance on deck, all action stops as each character spends several pages analyzing their feelings about her, Spock offers to teach her chess, she helps Bones diagnose an alien plague, and causes Kirk to swear to give up his philandering ways, and then later dies in spectacularly picturesque fashion, causing profound change in each character as they resolve to be worthy of the moments she graced their lives...<em>that's</em> a Mary Sue.</p><p></p><p>A Mary Sue is kind of definitionally a secondary character; one for whom the whole universe of the story warps around her (or him...but it's often a her), and the characters that we are supposedly interested in suddenly become secondary characters in a psychodrama about this supposed spear carrier.</p><p></p><p>But an omni-competent main character in a story about his adventures-the word for that isn't Mary Sue, it's <em>protagonist</em>. The main character of the story is generally going to be the one who does the really awesome things. Let's add that we're hearing our story as a first person tale of someone not overburdened with an abundance of false modesty. However shining through his pride/arrogance is the fact that he is easily manipulated by a serial manipulator, foregoing several more healthy relationships, he regularly sabotages his own good fortune through anger and misjudgement, and most hilarious, he completely misunderstands the purpose and what is important in chemistry (a scene that puts paid to the idea that he's some kind of all encompassing genius). And while he's probably the best generalist; there's generally somebody who is better than him at anything he is good at. Even as a musician, his only accomplishment is the equivalent of pop music.</p><p></p><p> Compare him to the Fitz of Robin Hobbs' <em>Farseer Trilogy</em>, a character who is obviously quite talented, charismatic, and who accomplishes a lot of really incredible things--but everything he does is presented in the most downbeat fashion as he continually tells you how useless he is and incredible everybody else is. I'm really not sure that's any better. (Not saying the <em>Farseer Trilogy </em>is bad-I highly recommend it; but it <em>is</em> different).</p><p></p><p>Kvothe isn't even all that unbelievable-read up on the accomplishments of Benjamin Franklin, Isaac Newton, or Leonardo in the real world.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, I don't know if I will change any minds, but I wrote all this out so I'm gonna post it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Salamandyr, post: 6146911, member: 40233"] More and more I'm convinced that the only proper definition of a Mary Sue is "a character the reader doesn't like". I've been guilty of it too, having referred to highly popular Harry Dresden as a Mary Sue in the past. Mary Sue started out as a fan fiction term-Captain Kirk, as omni competent as he is, isn't a Mary Sue; the entire show is written about him. But Yeoman Marley Susan, who upon her appearance on deck, all action stops as each character spends several pages analyzing their feelings about her, Spock offers to teach her chess, she helps Bones diagnose an alien plague, and causes Kirk to swear to give up his philandering ways, and then later dies in spectacularly picturesque fashion, causing profound change in each character as they resolve to be worthy of the moments she graced their lives...[I]that's[/I] a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue is kind of definitionally a secondary character; one for whom the whole universe of the story warps around her (or him...but it's often a her), and the characters that we are supposedly interested in suddenly become secondary characters in a psychodrama about this supposed spear carrier. But an omni-competent main character in a story about his adventures-the word for that isn't Mary Sue, it's [I]protagonist[/I]. The main character of the story is generally going to be the one who does the really awesome things. Let's add that we're hearing our story as a first person tale of someone not overburdened with an abundance of false modesty. However shining through his pride/arrogance is the fact that he is easily manipulated by a serial manipulator, foregoing several more healthy relationships, he regularly sabotages his own good fortune through anger and misjudgement, and most hilarious, he completely misunderstands the purpose and what is important in chemistry (a scene that puts paid to the idea that he's some kind of all encompassing genius). And while he's probably the best generalist; there's generally somebody who is better than him at anything he is good at. Even as a musician, his only accomplishment is the equivalent of pop music. Compare him to the Fitz of Robin Hobbs' [I]Farseer Trilogy[/I], a character who is obviously quite talented, charismatic, and who accomplishes a lot of really incredible things--but everything he does is presented in the most downbeat fashion as he continually tells you how useless he is and incredible everybody else is. I'm really not sure that's any better. (Not saying the [I]Farseer Trilogy [/I]is bad-I highly recommend it; but it [I]is[/I] different). Kvothe isn't even all that unbelievable-read up on the accomplishments of Benjamin Franklin, Isaac Newton, or Leonardo in the real world. Anyway, I don't know if I will change any minds, but I wrote all this out so I'm gonna post it. [/QUOTE]
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