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Message: <blockquote data-quote="touc" data-source="post: 9744823" data-attributes="member: 19270">I ran Kingmaker in both PF1E (mostly as written, real life killed the campaign during the 5th module) and then over 10 years later with a D&D 5E conversion (lots of added material and expansion of the primary storyline, completed with characters at level 16). I consider the 5E campaign lasting nearly 2 years to be my magnus opus. That's saying a lot over decades of gaming and props to players who were all in on making storylines. I've got an immense amount of notes and materials if you want.That said:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I considered Pathfinder's Ultimate Campaign "bastions" as D&D 2024 wasn't out (specialized buildings that could be added on with unique events for each, basically the same thing as D&D 2024), but went with the "mini-game" of the original using Jason Nelson's "Ultimate Kingdom 5E" (a conversion of the original "Ultimate Campaign" material with edits to avoid exploits like magic shops).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I required the players to role-play and earn their starting "Build Points" by cozying up to powerful people.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I combined this with Matt Colville's "Kingdoms & Warfare" and "Strongholds and Followers" books for raising troops.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It was a lot of labor. A lot...</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Players were excited at the idea, so hence the labor.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">In both 1E and 5E, kingdom building was actually exciting and fun...for a few sessions. Then it became boring & cumbersome. And, the rate of expansion is extremely unrealistic. Villages don't become cities in a few months.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It's very easy for a few bad rolls to tailspin the kingdom into ruin.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Once you get past that point is when the fun falls off. I limited towns to 1 sheet, but even then it got cumbersome.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">One player usually ends up running things. In 1E, we needed a computer program to track everything.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It comes dully repetitive to roll kingdom checks over and over and over.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It's hard to get all players involved, including in mass combat, no matter what the rules.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Had to have a flowchart.</li> </ul></li> </ul>[ATTACH=full]416031[/ATTACH]<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The entire point of kingdom building in 1E was to be able to afford to build an army for another mini warfare game and provide income for crafting or buying magical gear, a necessity in 3E and Pathfinder built into the rules.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Gold income became a huge issue.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">By the 3rd module (going into centaur lands, vanished village), we abandoned kingdom building. By that time, rolls were pretty much automatic. Boring.</li> </ul>In retrospect?<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Use bases but make them rewards from adventures. I liked Colville's Strongholds book. It's awesome. It's got a base for every character type with (caveat) a massive power boost. Consider having something like this and having players adventure to reclaim special bases in their lands, whether this be Bastions or the Strongholds.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Keep the original roles (ruler, high priest, grand diplomat, etc.), but create special tasks with special events tied to them inspired by the original roles, such as setting tax rates, holidays, etc. Make it all about the roleplay or leading to side quests.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Kingdom rules can work great for one module. It's a novel mini-game. Calamities or mismanagement can lead to roleplaying opportunities. But, after Rivers Run Red (#2), consider the kingdom running well enough on its own and abandon them.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Create a huge list of kingdom events. I made a calendar of the first year or two with preset events and module events mixed in. Otherwise, it's too crazy to track.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Players should be expected as heroic rulers to handle the "big stuff" in the kingdom. Abandon them handling the little stuff and have NPCs do that, such as wild boar troubles.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Use the PCs as "special forces" in mass combat instead of actual mass combat. It's a chore.</li> </ul></blockquote>

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