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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kreynolds" data-source="post: 506667" data-attributes="member: 2829">Oh yes. Good point. I overlooked that. Thanks for the info.Still, that only brings my new total to 4.2 (4.3 if I consider the ability to fly a .6 modifier, or 4.4 if I consider it a .7 modifier). Rounding down, that's a +4 ECL. I still don't think that it should be higher. I've been mulling this over for a little while. A 0-level Kir-Lanan, when compared with a 4th level fighter (or any 4th level class for that matter) is indeed more powerful. However, when I compare those to 6th level characters (or NPCs), the Kir-Lanan can barely keep up. Against 8th level characters (or NPCs), the Kir-Lanan begins to fall way behind in the power market.For example, it's Negative Energy Touch doesn't improve with level. It only gets better if it's Charisma goes up. A save DC of 12 isn't that hard to beat for 8th level characters. This is what the classes, at 8th level, straight from the DMG, no magic items, would have to roll to make the Fort save in order to negate the temporary Strength damage...Barbarian - 4 or higherBard - 9 or higherCleric - 3 or higherDruid - 5 or higherFighter - only fails on a 1Monk - 3 or higherPaladin - only fails on a 1Ranger - 5 or higherRogue - 8 or higherSorcerer - 8 or higherWizard - 9 or higherThe Kir-Lanan isn't very powerful anymore.The same also applies to it's Ray of Enfeeblement spell-like ability, which has an even lower Fort save DC of 10 (I believe it suffers a saving throw penalty for having a negative Cha modifier, but if it doesn't, let me know). This is what the classes, at 8th level, straight from the DMG, no magic items, would have to roll to make the Fort save in order to negate this spell-like ability...Barbarian - only fails on a 1Bard - 7 or higherCleric - only fails on a 1Druid - only fails on a 1Fighter - only fails on a 1Monk - only fails on a 1Paladin - only fails on a 1Ranger - only fails on a 1Rogue - 6 or higherSorcerer - 6 or higherWizard - 7 or higherThis ability is now next to useless.The Kir-Lanan's Rebuke Undead ability continues to improve, of course, but really, it's not that impressive to begin with. Assuming the Kir-Lanan is ECL +6, and it has 2 class levels (in any class, it doesn't matter), the best it could do on a rebuke check with it's listed stats (assuming it rolls a 20, which equals a 19 because of it's low Charisma) is 11 HD of undead. That's horrible, especially given a nat 20 roll on the check.However, there are some things that the Kir-Lanan has that will always be useful. Claw attacks are great. It's awesome to be able to fall back on some good old fashioned natural weapons. It's ability to fly is terrific (by the way, I agree with you that this is a strong ability, and I think the ECL mod for this should be .6, but definately no more than .7). Natural armor is great. It's with you forever. However, it's also a shame when you want to improve upon it but magic doesn't stack with it. If the Kir-Lanan wants Natural Armor of +6, it essentially has to waste half of the cash just to get it. Not a big deal, honestly, but still. Finally, the +4 to Hide is nice to have.In summary, if you stack a ECL 6 Kir-Lanan up to 4th level characters, it's a little more powerful, but not by much. Stack it up to 6th level characters though, and it's costly abilities aren't so great anymore. Stack it up to 8th level characters, even if it has a couple class levels, and it'll get stomped if it doesn't fly away screaming in terror.Essentially, I think the ECL should be +4. However, I wouldn't allow a 0-level Kir-Lanan to enter a game with 4th level characters. I would, however, allow it enter a game with 6th level characters. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that if you rule it's ECL to be +6, you are permanently stripping the Kir-Lanan of 2 class levels, and as the fellow party members continue to level, even if the Kir-Lanan's ECL catches up, the Kir-Lanan will always be a good distance behind in power. At 15th level, it's supernatural and spell-like abilities are next to worthless.If it's started with an ECL of +6, it would be balanced with human characters in a 6th level party (more or less, but mostly less). However, it will rapidly lose power as it and the party continues to level. In a game with 6th level characters and a 0-level Kir-Lanan, I think that by the time a Kir-Lanan's ECL catches up with the others in a few levels, it will even out just fine.Granted, a player wouldn't take the stats of the Kir-Lanan right out of the FRCS. They would roll stats and apply the racial ability modifiers. So, there's a chance that they might have a much better Charisma, and much better stats all around. Still, if the ECL is too high, it will never be even close to normal characters.Anyhow, those are my thoughts.</blockquote>

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