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Message: <blockquote data-quote="drnuncheon" data-source="post: 507427" data-attributes="member: 96">One thing I want to mention first: Kir-lanans don't have a Cha penalty, they have a Wis penalty.  Also note that the fort save on the negative energy touch only negates the Str damage, not the negative energy damage.  And I missed the fact that the touch healed the kir-lanan, that makes it even better!I agree that with most classes, they're going to be weak - especially with a spellcasting class, who are almost always a bad deal with ECL (unless you let natural spellcasters stack sorc levels on top of their natural levels).But let's compare a human Ftr8 with a Kir-lanan Ftr2 (assuming ECL 6).  Assume we're using the same stats for each character, before racial adjustments.Fighter has BAB 8, Kir-lanan has BAB 6 (equal to the 'second string' warriors like clerics)  So, advantage fighter at first glance.  But, the kir-lanan is going to have strength 4 higher than the fighter - so they'll actually have equal attack values, and the kir-lanan will be doing 2-3 points more damage per hit.Fighter has 8d10 hp (average 44), kir-lanan has 4d8+2d10 (avg 29).  Advantage to the fighter, definitely.Saves, the kir-lanan will rock all over the fighter on.  The fighter is going to have +6/+2/+2 for his base saves (F/R/W).  The kir-lanan has +4/+5/+3.  Sure, the Fort save is lower, but the other two are better.  I'd say advantage: kir-lanan.Skills - the fighter's skill list sucks. The Kir-lanan dominates over the fighter here, with access to several rogue skills.Feats - the fighter has 6, the kir-lanan has 3.Since they get equal equipment allowances, the kir-lanan is going to have an AC of 4 higher than the fighter - 1 for Dex, 3 for natural armor.The kir-lanan has flight for free.So, basically, discounting the spell-like abilities, the kir-lanan is trading 15 hit points and 3 feats for great flight, +4 AC, +2 damage, better skills, and better saves.  I think that's a more than fair trade.Moving up in levels, I think the 'losses' you take for being a kir-lanan will shrink, not grow.  Looking at 20th level characters (human ftr 20 vs. kir-lanan ftr 14):BAB +20 vs. BAB +18 - still same number of hits, and the kir-lanan is still +4 str ahead of the human, so still hitting the same and doing 2-3 points more.Hit points will still have the 15 point gap (ftr 110, kir-lanan 95) but that's a lot smaller at level 20 than it is at lower levels.Saves: Ftr F/R/W of 12/6/6, kir-lanan of 10/9/7. Still better for the kir-lanan.Skills: Gargoyle, still ahead.Feats: 12 for the fighter, 9 for the gargoyle.  This and hit points are the only place the fighter still has an advantage.Flight and the natural armor are still equally useful - the fighter would have to spend 40000 gp just to catch up (wings of flying & amulet of natural armor), which is enough for the kir-lanan to get some other armor-boosting item (ring of protection +4 perhaps?) and maintain his lead.Again, I think it's a fair trade - it's even better here than at the lower levels, because 15 hp and 3 feats doesn't mean nearly as much.  If you only made it ECL +4, the kir-lanan would wipe the floor with the human fighter, surpassing him in attacks and damage, almost catching up in hit points, getting even better saves, only being 2 feats behind...Basically, ask yourself this:  Would you, as a fighter, trade 2 feats and 4 hit points for +2 damage (on everything! That's more than a feat there), +2 dex, natural armor, and flight?  I sure as hell would.Now, a kir-lanan spellcaster would certainly suck, missing out on 6 levels - but hey, half-orc spellcasters suck too, and they don't get a discount for it.J</blockquote>

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