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<blockquote data-quote="drnuncheon" data-source="post: 507623" data-attributes="member: 96">Full plate has a Max Dex bonus of +1, so it all depends on where the fighter's dex score is at.&nbsp; Still, +3 is nothing to sneeze at, and there's always mithril or something similar.I was completely ignoring the spell-like abilities when I posted the comparison, and the kir-lanan still came out about as good as the fighter at ECL +6.&nbsp; That suggests to me more that Soldarin's calculator doesn't work very well in this case than it does that +6 is too high.&nbsp; Set aside the calculator for a bit and look at the numbers that I posted.&nbsp; ECL 4 is way too low.At ECL 4, compared to a human Ftr4, the kir-lanan has +2 to hit in melee, +2 damage with all melee and thrown weapons, 90' flight, +3 natural armor, better skills, better saves.&nbsp; Note that we are not considering the spell-like abilities at all.The Ftr 4 has 4 more hit points and 4 more feats.&nbsp; Would you give +2 damage to all weapons for a single feat?&nbsp; +3 natural armor for a single feat? (Epic feats don't even do that!)&nbsp; 90' flight for a single feat? +4 to Hide for a single feat?&nbsp; That's what you're effectively doing if you set the kir-lanans at ECL 4 - you get far more than you give up, and we haven't even gotten to the saves and the spell-like abilities.Better to-hit, better damage, better armor, better mobility, better skills, better saves - the kir-lanan is just flat out better than the fighter if it's at ECL 4.&nbsp; If I were a human fighter, I'd be pretty peeved at a DM who let one of those into the game, because it'd basically completely overshadow me in my area of specialty.&nbsp; The only thing I'd have going for me is...woo! Maybe weapon focus and power attack...and I /still/ couldn't match the damage output.J</blockquote>

[QUOTE="drnuncheon, post: 507623, member: 96"] Full plate has a Max Dex bonus of +1, so it all depends on where the fighter's dex score is at. Still, +3 is nothing to sneeze at, and there's always mithril or something similar. I was completely ignoring the spell-like abilities when I posted the comparison, and the kir-lanan [i]still[/i] came out about as good as the fighter at ECL +6. That suggests to me more that Soldarin's calculator doesn't work very well in this case than it does that +6 is too high. Set aside the calculator for a bit and look at the numbers that I posted. ECL 4 is way too low. At ECL 4, compared to a human Ftr4, the kir-lanan has +2 to hit in melee, +2 damage with all melee and thrown weapons, 90' flight, +3 natural armor, better skills, better saves. Note that we are not considering the spell-like abilities at all. The Ftr 4 has 4 more hit points and 4 more feats. Would you give +2 damage to all weapons for a single feat? +3 natural armor for a single feat? (Epic feats don't even do that!) 90' flight for a single feat? +4 to Hide for a single feat? That's what you're effectively doing if you set the kir-lanans at ECL 4 - you get far more than you give up, and we haven't even gotten to the saves and the spell-like abilities. Better to-hit, better damage, better armor, better mobility, better skills, better saves - the kir-lanan is just flat out better than the fighter if it's at ECL 4. If I were a human fighter, I'd be pretty peeved at a DM who let one of those into the game, because it'd basically completely overshadow me in my area of specialty. The only thing I'd have going for me is...woo! Maybe weapon focus and power attack...and I /still/ couldn't match the damage output. J [/QUOTE]

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