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<blockquote data-quote="Alzrius" data-source="post: 6279303" data-attributes="member: 8461"><p>The difference is that your complaint isn't valid; mine is.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's fairly easy to say that a feat that lets you remove all somatic, material, and verbal components from spellcasting, without increasing the spell level, is better than the metamagic feats that do those.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Except you're not playtesting the system in question (the d20 System). You're playtesting your frankenstein's monster of rules; moreover, you're trying to evaluate them beyond "whatever these six guys want."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>They're not relevant; what's important is what those terms mean within the context of the game rules, not within the context of the dictionary. Likewise, that's apart from your argument that paranormal/supernatural->magic->spellcasting, and so spellcasting represents all paranormal phenomena, which strikes me as being self-evidently not the case.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You need to go re-read them then, because I'm not wrong in that regard.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So your argument is that because Vance's works don't present the game mechanics in D&D, it's not based on those works? That's a fairly weak proposition to make, as the game mechanics were meant to model the methodology of spellcasting present in those works (e.g. the preparation of individual spells that were lost when expended). The differences in how many could be memorized and how often they were used is a minor point that doesn't invalidate the larger parallel.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Those ideas aren't present in D&D spellcasting. Only the effects of certain spells (e.g. <em>sticks to snakes</em>) are cribbed from other sources - the actual manner by which those spells were cast are not. The use of "ritual casting" as you name it is very different from what D&D presents, save for the most basic of comparisons (e.g. speaking when invoking magic, etc.).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Let's leave aside for a moment that it's not a "mutagen" that makes Peter Parker into Spider-Man; it's a particular spider. This showcases your ridiculous claim that you somehow are more correct about the nature of a thing because you're using it in the manner in the dictionary. This ignores that a given venue can change the meaning associated with a particular word or concept, and so within that venue the dictionary definition is of limited value, at best.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's a bit harder when you can't just make it up, isn't it? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which is another way of saying "it's not magic." Super powers clearly play by different rules, but they're also set apart from magic as defined in Marvel comics.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's not when the two are treated as specific and divorced entities. You seem to use magic for "anything that's beyond the bounds of real-world science," which falls apart when there are multiple discrete areas that meet that basic definition.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You can, but that gets further away from the concept that you're trying to model, which means that it's doing a poor job of it. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This misrepresents the nature of my indictment of your system. You weren't just presuming that all supernatural forces were "magic," but then that these could all be represented as "spellcasting," which has its own set of problems (e.g. components).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The model isn't succeeding as much as it could with regard to what it's modeling.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Or it's not a spell effect at all, and yet is still a clearly non-natural power. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Like all aspects of the game with an in-character equivalent, they affect the representation of the game as it's imagined by the players; moreover, it has an effect in the game world that can be impacted. If your character is tied up and gagged, their spellcasting is in all likelihood impeded, but psychic powers wouldn't be.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't believe this is necessarily the case, or at least not as much as you do.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Incorrect. Psionics as it exists in D&D is not magic.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Synonyms exist, but game terminology is not a place where their found. This is proven in the case of psionics as it exists is inarguably not magic.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which shows that your system, even with you inventing new parts of it whole-cloth as necessary, is still more limited than you think.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is ironic considering that you're not defining the mechanics by the system in question, but by your personal fiat. That said, the player does have some agency in what mechanics they take for their character; hence why they select their own feats, skills, etc.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Except that this is self-evidently not so, since how a sorcerer actually casts a spell is indistinguishable from how a wizard casts a spell.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Having some similarities does not make them the same thing, nor does their ability to interact with each other. The fact that they're different at the meta level only highlights their differences at the in-game level.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Indeed; your analogy is less impactful by far.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Alzrius, post: 6279303, member: 8461"] The difference is that your complaint isn't valid; mine is. It's fairly easy to say that a feat that lets you remove all somatic, material, and verbal components from spellcasting, without increasing the spell level, is better than the metamagic feats that do those. Except you're not playtesting the system in question (the d20 System). You're playtesting your frankenstein's monster of rules; moreover, you're trying to evaluate them beyond "whatever these six guys want." They're not relevant; what's important is what those terms mean within the context of the game rules, not within the context of the dictionary. Likewise, that's apart from your argument that paranormal/supernatural->magic->spellcasting, and so spellcasting represents all paranormal phenomena, which strikes me as being self-evidently not the case. You need to go re-read them then, because I'm not wrong in that regard. So your argument is that because Vance's works don't present the game mechanics in D&D, it's not based on those works? That's a fairly weak proposition to make, as the game mechanics were meant to model the methodology of spellcasting present in those works (e.g. the preparation of individual spells that were lost when expended). The differences in how many could be memorized and how often they were used is a minor point that doesn't invalidate the larger parallel. Those ideas aren't present in D&D spellcasting. Only the effects of certain spells (e.g. [i]sticks to snakes[/i]) are cribbed from other sources - the actual manner by which those spells were cast are not. The use of "ritual casting" as you name it is very different from what D&D presents, save for the most basic of comparisons (e.g. speaking when invoking magic, etc.). Let's leave aside for a moment that it's not a "mutagen" that makes Peter Parker into Spider-Man; it's a particular spider. This showcases your ridiculous claim that you somehow are more correct about the nature of a thing because you're using it in the manner in the dictionary. This ignores that a given venue can change the meaning associated with a particular word or concept, and so within that venue the dictionary definition is of limited value, at best. It's a bit harder when you can't just make it up, isn't it? ;) Which is another way of saying "it's not magic." Super powers clearly play by different rules, but they're also set apart from magic as defined in Marvel comics. It's not when the two are treated as specific and divorced entities. You seem to use magic for "anything that's beyond the bounds of real-world science," which falls apart when there are multiple discrete areas that meet that basic definition. You can, but that gets further away from the concept that you're trying to model, which means that it's doing a poor job of it. This misrepresents the nature of my indictment of your system. You weren't just presuming that all supernatural forces were "magic," but then that these could all be represented as "spellcasting," which has its own set of problems (e.g. components). The model isn't succeeding as much as it could with regard to what it's modeling. Or it's not a spell effect at all, and yet is still a clearly non-natural power. Like all aspects of the game with an in-character equivalent, they affect the representation of the game as it's imagined by the players; moreover, it has an effect in the game world that can be impacted. If your character is tied up and gagged, their spellcasting is in all likelihood impeded, but psychic powers wouldn't be. I don't believe this is necessarily the case, or at least not as much as you do. Incorrect. Psionics as it exists in D&D is not magic. Synonyms exist, but game terminology is not a place where their found. This is proven in the case of psionics as it exists is inarguably not magic. Which shows that your system, even with you inventing new parts of it whole-cloth as necessary, is still more limited than you think. This is ironic considering that you're not defining the mechanics by the system in question, but by your personal fiat. That said, the player does have some agency in what mechanics they take for their character; hence why they select their own feats, skills, etc. Except that this is self-evidently not so, since how a sorcerer actually casts a spell is indistinguishable from how a wizard casts a spell. Having some similarities does not make them the same thing, nor does their ability to interact with each other. The fact that they're different at the meta level only highlights their differences at the in-game level. Indeed; your analogy is less impactful by far. [/QUOTE]
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