KotS Winterhaven size? (maybe spoilers?)

[kristov]

Does the town of Winterhaven seem a little inappropriately sized?

It says it has like 1000 people in it, the town has like 20 buildings at most. Do 900 people live in farms right outside its walls or what?

The new "sample exerpt town" or whatever Fallcrest has a similar initial size, 1300, and is far more sensible.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080526a

Opinions?

 

[Korgoth]

Does the town of Winterhaven seem a little inappropriately sized?

It says it has like 1000 people in it, the town has like 20 buildings at most. Do 900 people live in farms right outside its walls or what?

The new "sample exerpt town" or whatever Fallcrest has a similar initial size, 1300, and is far more sensible.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080526a

Opinions?

Unless the population figure is a typo (no reason to think so besides reasonability) it looks like about 900 people are supposed to live outside the walls.

Which means either that there is a big problem with the scale of the overland map, or that much of the overland map is really taken up with farmsteads. Someone posted an image in an older thread called "Altered Winterhaven" that showed what the overland map should look like with the farmsteads. It basically extended Winterhaven up to the edge of the mountains and filled most of the SW portion, stopping short of the special locations E of town.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I'm not sure why population figures really matter in the long run. Sure it's nice to get a "feel" for the true size of the town, but it's not like the party is out doing a census.

Suffice to say Winterhaven is significantly smaller than Fallcrest.

Fitz

 

[kristov]

I'm not sure why population figures really matter in the long run. Sure it's nice to get a "feel" for the true size of the town, but it's not like the party is out doing a census.

Suffice to say Winterhaven is significantly smaller than Fallcrest.

Fitz

Well I guess it depends on your players - I have some players who like to "stop and smell the roses" - basically take time to see what is around them in the world - perhaps explore the town and its people.

I could railroad them passed it all so they dont notice - but id still rather see some sort of logic in the game where it is reasonable.

 

[Irda Ranger]

It says it has like 1000 people in it, the town has like 20 buildings at most. Do 900 people live in farms right outside its walls or what?

Well, we don't know how crowded those tenemants are.

But 90% of the population living in farmsteads outside the walls would be consistent with any pre-industrial society.

 

[JuJutsu]

I'm not sure why population figures really matter in the long run. Sure it's nice to get a "feel" for the true size of the town, but it's not like the party is out doing a census.

Suffice to say Winterhaven is significantly smaller than Fallcrest.

Fitz

Well there goes my Census Taker adventure hook

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Well I guess it depends on your players - I have some players who like to "stop and smell the roses" - basically take time to see what is around them in the world - perhaps explore the town and its people.

I'm totally with you on this. However, I still don't see how exact population figures factor into this at all. There is plenty of information (IMO) to get a good idea what the town's like. Within the walls people live in the houses, barracks, inn, stables, and shops, & the prominent NPCs have their places, and everyone else lives in farms in the surrounding area. I think even the most stubborn "stop and smell the roses" players should get bored of exploring the location and visiting all the farmhouses before they wind up with a head count, or have a problem with the logic thereof.

Well there goes my Census Taker adventure hook

It's funny. I was going to say "Unless you want to use a Census hook" but thought better of it.

Fitz

 

[D'karr]

Several places in the adventure specifically mention the outlying farms.

The first description of the town specifically calls out "small thatched homes stand around Winterhaven, each fronting a small piece of farmland or pasture. Beyond the farms to the west and south lie dark woods..."

One of the NPCs, Eilian the Old "has a farm in the valley along the Old King's road"

This was from reading just the first page of description of Winterhaven. So it is entirely reasonable to believe that that majority of the population of Winterhaven lives outside the walled area.

 

[kristov]

The book also mentions that in times of attacks by goblins/orc or whatever, the populace retreats and lives in the keep - in fact they have a small building devoted to supplies for such a siege I guess?

Thats one crowded keep.

 

[Yaezakura]

The book also mentions that in times of attacks by goblins/orc or whatever, the populace retreats and lives in the keep - in fact they have a small building devoted to supplies for such a siege I guess?

Thats one crowded keep.

Keeps are meant to keep the population alive, not to keep them comfortable.

But yes, the vast majority of people would live outside the city proper, and farming families tend to be large, often simply to have enough people on hand to do the work (and to compensate when some get the silly idea in their heads to go off adventuring...). It wouldn't surprise me if the average farm around the city sported 10 or more people. A father and mother, several children, perhaps grandparents if they've managed to hang in for that long, sometimes more extended family... It doesn't take long to add up to 1,000.