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<blockquote data-quote="Greenfield" data-source="post: 6516525" data-attributes="member: 6669384">This was the &quot;Polymorph&quot; I was referring to, a &quot;targeted&quot; spell.&nbsp; Sorry I wasn't more clear.&nbsp; I was thinking of the kind you throw on an enemy in combat.I guess the key is the difference between &quot;cover&quot; and &quot;concealment&quot;.&nbsp; If you can have cover without concealment (and Wall of Force pretty much says you can), then aimed and targeted spells would work.&nbsp; If the ruling is that the surface of the ocean isn't transparent like a shallow stream or fish pond, then you're back to trying to target a creature you can't see.IRL, you can't see into ocean water, or even most freshwater bodies such as lakes, more than a few feet from the surface.&nbsp; I guess that's why, when the rules said &quot;total cover&quot;, I thought &quot;concealment&quot; as part of the deal.As for magical combat between underwater opponents is concerned, I think there's a rule for visibility under water...Unless the sea is incredibly calm, I'd tend to call it &quot;moving water&quot;.&nbsp; So an average maximum visibility of 40 feet or so, but as much as 80 on a good day.The Kraken can Ink Cloud for additional cover/concealment, and has 60 ft Blindsense, which makes the lack of visibility less of a problem for it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Greenfield, post: 6516525, member: 6669384"] This was the "Polymorph" I was referring to, a "targeted" spell. Sorry I wasn't more clear. I was thinking of the kind you throw on an enemy in combat. I guess the key is the difference between "cover" and "concealment". If you can have cover without concealment (and [I]Wall of Force[/I] pretty much says you can), then aimed and targeted spells would work. If the ruling is that the surface of the ocean isn't transparent like a shallow stream or fish pond, then you're back to trying to target a creature you can't see. IRL, you can't see into ocean water, or even most freshwater bodies such as lakes, more than a few feet from the surface. I guess that's why, when the rules said "total cover", I thought "concealment" as part of the deal. As for magical combat between underwater opponents is concerned, I think there's a rule for visibility under water... Unless the sea is incredibly calm, I'd tend to call it "moving water". So an average maximum visibility of 40 feet or so, but as much as 80 on a good day. The Kraken can Ink Cloud for additional cover/concealment, and has 60 ft Blindsense, which makes the lack of visibility less of a problem for it. [/QUOTE]

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