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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DMZ2112" data-source="post: 6156376" data-attributes="member: 78752">Hey, self!  Don't tell me what to do!  You're not the boss of me!Fine, jerk!  Go on, then!  Make an ass of yourself!I will!  I'll show you!  I'll show you all!I've done some thinking about this point, and in retrospect the Abyss is actually an excellent example of what it is I like so much about the D&D4 cosmology.  It is irreverent, to say the least, but it is part of a narrative that ties together a lot of very old D&D cosmology.First a little background.  One of the things that has always chapped my hide about D&D cosmology is that its most interesting narrative bits don't fit right.  The two best examples I can think of are The Rod of Seven Parts and the Wind Dukes of Aaqa (although many of the AD&D1 artifacts are pretty good examples) and the Temple and Princes of Elemental Evil.Now, the Rod of Seven Parts is old.  1976 old.  Not that things from the late 70s are old in general (he says, self-consciously), but in terms of roleplaying games it is pretty freaking old.  It's story is that old, too; its original publication mentions the Wind Dukes, and the Battle of Pesh, and Miska the Wolf-Spider.If you've never read the boxed set Rod of Seven Parts adventure from the 90s, I think you can probably safely skip it.  It's not a bad campaign, insofar as you can package a campaign in a box, but Skip Williams tries so hard to shoehorn the myth of the Rod into Planescape, and it is so obvious that it just does not go.Similarly the Princes of Elemental Evil.  Are they demon princes?  Are they elementals?  If they're the former, why are they elemental?  If they're the latter, why are they evil?I realize that Planescape /made/ places for these concepts retroactively, but it was not designed to contain them.The Abyss in D&D4, on the other hand, was designed with specific D&D lore in mind.  It is created by Tharizdun, defining for the first time exactly what it was that he did that caused /every other god on Oerth/ to gang up and lock him away.  It explains the origin of the Princes of Elemental Evil, too, because it binds chaos, evil, and elemental power into a single location.As much as I hate the Chaotic Evil is SUPER EVIL move, it is things like the Abyss that really sell me on D&D4 cosmology.  Yes, Planescape was also built on established AD&D1 lore, but it evolved away from its origins.  The D&D4 cosmology does not.  It grows outward but in a logical fashion that says, "Yes, D&D is played here," at every turn.I've been writing this post on and off for hours now.  It's time to stop.  Hopefully I've made some semblance of my point. [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], I do not consider us to be ideological allies in the slightest -- I mean at all -- so I'm a little flabbergasted to admit that I've apparently  given you so much experience that I can't give you any more.That said, your words make me weep heartfelt tears of agreement and regret for what could have been.</blockquote>

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