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L&L 1/7/2013 The Many Worlds of D&D
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<blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 6157144" data-attributes="member: 95493"><p>[sblock][h=3]Outsider Type[/h] An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence. </p><p> [h=5]Features[/h] An outsider has the following features. </p><p> </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">8-sided Hit Dice. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm" target="_blank">fighter</a>). </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Good Fortitude, Reflex, and <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#will" target="_blank">Will saves</a>. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. </li> </ul><p> [h=5]Traits[/h] An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). </p><p> </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#darkvision" target="_blank">Darkvision</a> out to 60 feet. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm" target="_blank">raise dead</a>, <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm" target="_blank">reincarnate</a>, and <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm" target="_blank">resurrection</a>, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm" target="_blank">limited wish</a>, <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm" target="_blank">wish</a>, <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm" target="_blank">miracle</a>, or <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm" target="_blank">true resurrection</a> to restore it to life. An outsider with the <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#nativeSubtype" target="_blank">native</a> subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#weaponArmorAndShieldProficiency" target="_blank">Proficient</a> with all <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleMartialandExoticWeapons" target="_blank">simple and martial weapons</a> and any weapons mentioned in its entry. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#weaponArmorAndShieldProficiency" target="_blank">Proficient</a> with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#nativeSubtype" target="_blank">Native</a> outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep. </li> </ul><p>[/sblock]</p><p>[sblock][h=3]Elemental Type[/h] An elemental is a being composed of one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water. </p><p> [h=5]Features[/h] An elemental has the following features. </p><p> </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">8-sided Hit Dice. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Base attack bonus equal to ¾ total Hit Dice (as <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm" target="_blank">cleric</a>). </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Good saves depend on the element: Fortitude (earth, water) or Reflex (air, fire). </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. </li> </ul><p> [h=5]Traits[/h] An elemental possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). </p><p> </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#darkvision" target="_blank">Darkvision</a> out to 60 feet. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Immunity to <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison" target="_blank">poison</a>, <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleep.htm" target="_blank">sleep</a> effects, <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#paralysis" target="_blank">paralysis</a>, and <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#stunned" target="_blank">stunning</a>. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Not subject to <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits" target="_blank">critical hits</a> or <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#flanking" target="_blank">flanking</a>. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Unlike most other living creatures, an elemental does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an elemental is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm" target="_blank">raise dead</a>, <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm" target="_blank">reincarnate</a>, and <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm" target="_blank">resurrection</a>, don’t work on an elemental. It takes a different magical effect, such as <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm" target="_blank">limited wish</a>, <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm" target="_blank">wish</a>, <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm" target="_blank">miracle</a>, or <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm" target="_blank">true resurrection</a>, to restore it to life. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#weaponArmorAndShieldProficiency" target="_blank">Proficient</a> with <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons" target="_blank">natural weapons</a> only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleMartialandExoticWeapons" target="_blank">simple weapons</a> and any weapons mentioned in its entry. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#weaponArmorAndShieldProficiency" target="_blank">Proficient</a> with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) that it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Elementals do not eat, sleep, or breathe. </li> </ul><p>[/sblock]</p><p></p><p><strong> Similarities:</strong></p><p>comprised of material that is not of the material plane (flavour)</p><p>d8</p><p>darkvision</p><p>cannot be raised (one body/soul)</p><p>proficient with whatever is in their description</p><p>no need to breathe, eat, sleep</p><p>feat progression</p><p></p><p><strong> Differences:</strong></p><p>3/4 BAB vs full</p><p>good saves dependent on element vs all</p><p>2 vs 8 skill points</p><p>elementals have immunities, outsiders do too but it varies by subtype. I could put this in the similarities column.</p><p></p><p>Seems like the similarities outweigh the differences, at least to me. That's probably why elementals were made into outsiders in PF, as they are very similar.</p><p></p><p>Like I said, I don't see the big deal of where this matters to the discussion we are having. Yes there would have to be changes if you converted a demon from outsider to elemental. You don't have to observe those differences as the outsider type is better on the face of it but ignoring that, if you did convert then yes there is some work to be done. Then again, that would be the same in other editions of the game, including 4e.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tovec, post: 6157144, member: 95493"] [sblock][h=3]Outsider Type[/h] An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence. [h=5]Features[/h] An outsider has the following features. [LIST] [*]8-sided Hit Dice. [*]Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm"]fighter[/URL]). [*]Good Fortitude, Reflex, and [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#will"]Will saves[/URL]. [*]Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. [/LIST] [h=5]Traits[/h] An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). [LIST] [*][URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#darkvision"]Darkvision[/URL] out to 60 feet. [*]Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm"]raise dead[/URL], [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm"]reincarnate[/URL], and [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm"]resurrection[/URL], don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm"]limited wish[/URL], [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm"]wish[/URL], [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm"]miracle[/URL], or [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm"]true resurrection[/URL] to restore it to life. An outsider with the [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#nativeSubtype"]native[/URL] subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. [*][URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#weaponArmorAndShieldProficiency"]Proficient[/URL] with all [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleMartialandExoticWeapons"]simple and martial weapons[/URL] and any weapons mentioned in its entry. [*][URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#weaponArmorAndShieldProficiency"]Proficient[/URL] with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. [*]Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#nativeSubtype"]Native[/URL] outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep. [/LIST] [/sblock] [sblock][h=3]Elemental Type[/h] An elemental is a being composed of one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water. [h=5]Features[/h] An elemental has the following features. [LIST] [*]8-sided Hit Dice. [*]Base attack bonus equal to ¾ total Hit Dice (as [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm"]cleric[/URL]). [*]Good saves depend on the element: Fortitude (earth, water) or Reflex (air, fire). [*]Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. [/LIST] [h=5]Traits[/h] An elemental possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). [LIST] [*][URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#darkvision"]Darkvision[/URL] out to 60 feet. [*]Immunity to [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison"]poison[/URL], [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleep.htm"]sleep[/URL] effects, [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#paralysis"]paralysis[/URL], and [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#stunned"]stunning[/URL]. [*]Not subject to [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits"]critical hits[/URL] or [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#flanking"]flanking[/URL]. [*]Unlike most other living creatures, an elemental does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an elemental is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm"]raise dead[/URL], [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm"]reincarnate[/URL], and [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm"]resurrection[/URL], don’t work on an elemental. It takes a different magical effect, such as [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm"]limited wish[/URL], [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm"]wish[/URL], [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm"]miracle[/URL], or [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm"]true resurrection[/URL], to restore it to life. [*][URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#weaponArmorAndShieldProficiency"]Proficient[/URL] with [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons"]natural weapons[/URL] only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleMartialandExoticWeapons"]simple weapons[/URL] and any weapons mentioned in its entry. [*][URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#weaponArmorAndShieldProficiency"]Proficient[/URL] with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) that it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. [*]Elementals do not eat, sleep, or breathe. [/LIST] [/sblock] [B] Similarities:[/B] comprised of material that is not of the material plane (flavour) d8 darkvision cannot be raised (one body/soul) proficient with whatever is in their description no need to breathe, eat, sleep feat progression [B] Differences:[/B] 3/4 BAB vs full good saves dependent on element vs all 2 vs 8 skill points elementals have immunities, outsiders do too but it varies by subtype. I could put this in the similarities column. Seems like the similarities outweigh the differences, at least to me. That's probably why elementals were made into outsiders in PF, as they are very similar. Like I said, I don't see the big deal of where this matters to the discussion we are having. Yes there would have to be changes if you converted a demon from outsider to elemental. You don't have to observe those differences as the outsider type is better on the face of it but ignoring that, if you did convert then yes there is some work to be done. Then again, that would be the same in other editions of the game, including 4e. [/QUOTE]
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