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<blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 6100117" data-attributes="member: 7006">And yet... much of what is in D&amp;DN is directly because of things enjoyed in 4E.Fighters have Maneuvers.&nbsp; Combat abilities they can use during fights that are more than just attack/damage.&nbsp; Directly a result of 4E exploits.Hit dice?&nbsp; Directly a result of 4E healing surges.At-will spells?&nbsp; Directly a result of 4E casting.But of course... we also have a lot of 4Eisms that we need to remember just haven't been created YET... not that they aren't going to be in AT ALL.&nbsp; Like all the tactical miniatures gridded play?&nbsp; Not yet implemented (but pretty easy to see how it can and will be).The reason why 4E players have not seen &quot;their game&quot; yet is quite simple-- &quot;their game&quot; ISN'T.&nbsp; Isn't simple.&nbsp; At all.&nbsp; It's the most tactically complex combat system (with miniatures and grids and movement etc. etc.) that D&amp;D had ever seen.&nbsp; So why the heck would any of you think any of that stuff would appear in the beginning / first half of the playtest?&nbsp; You've all been waiting for advanced modules to show up before the basic and standard modules have even been completed.&nbsp; That's just silly.Why not take the reasonable approach and think to yourself that perhaps it might be... oh, I don't know... after all the races and classes get finished before you might start seeing some of the advanced modules start to show up for testing?&nbsp; Call me crazy... but wanting a playable replica of 4E before we've even got the stupid RANGER to playtest is kinda putting the cart before the horse, don'tcha think?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="DEFCON 1, post: 6100117, member: 7006"] And yet... much of what is in D&DN is directly because of things enjoyed in 4E. Fighters have Maneuvers. Combat abilities they can use during fights that are more than just attack/damage. Directly a result of 4E exploits. Hit dice? Directly a result of 4E healing surges. At-will spells? Directly a result of 4E casting. But of course... we also have a lot of 4Eisms that we need to remember just haven't been created YET... not that they aren't going to be in AT ALL. Like all the tactical miniatures gridded play? Not yet implemented (but pretty easy to see how it can and will be). The reason why 4E players have not seen "their game" yet is quite simple-- "their game" ISN'T. Isn't simple. At all. It's the most tactically complex combat system (with miniatures and grids and movement etc. etc.) that D&D had ever seen. So why the heck would any of you think any of that stuff would appear in the beginning / first half of the playtest? You've all been waiting for advanced modules to show up before the basic and standard modules have even been completed. That's just silly. Why not take the reasonable approach and think to yourself that perhaps it might be... oh, I don't know... [I]after all the races and classes get finished[/I] before you might start seeing some of the advanced modules start to show up for testing? Call me crazy... but wanting a playable replica of 4E before we've even got the stupid RANGER to playtest is kinda putting the cart before the horse, don'tcha think? [/QUOTE]

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