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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5910686" data-attributes="member: 82106">It is the whole notion that the DM HAS to 'give the non-optimized characters' something to do, and that the only logical optimization path is to be a caster. This was true even in AD&D much beyond 3rd level. 4e wizards are really not as much different from pre-4e wizards as many people have tried to make out. They have generally weaker defenses, lower hit points, less surges, etc. While magic is not strictly 'Vancian' by pre-4e standards it is not really that much different. A level 1 4e wizard has one powerful daily (basically this works exactly like pre-4e spells), an encounter spell (you could still consider this 'Vancian' but just requires only a couple minutes to re-memorize). Beyond that you have 2 at-will powers and several cantrips (all at-will but none of them do any damage). Then you start with 2 rituals, which cost gold (components) to cast and mostly have 5-10 minute casting times. You also have Arcana replacing Identify and Detect Magic, so you can use those pretty much whenever but it requires passing a check for Detect Magic to work.4e scrolls simply allow anyone to cast a ritual from the scroll (at 50% normal casting time). Any ritual caster can make them for a modest fee. Casting most rituals requires some sort of skill check, so any PC can try to use one, but in many cases won't get great results. Their main use is carting around a spare Raise Dead in case your ritual caster buys it. 4e wands can carry any at-will or encounter attack power, besides being an implement that grants a to-hit bonus if it is magical, which it almost always is. At-will powers become encounter item powers on a wand, and encounter powers become daily wand powers. There are also many other implement enchantments which are often better than a power, but a caster could invest in a couple. There's no real point in making a quiver full because the cost would be too high. You could do it, but the enhancement bonuses would be so low they wouldn't really be useful unless you're playing with a Monty Haul DM...Other consumables in 4e are generally limited in utility. Alchemical stuff (oil flasks and such basically) have mediocre to-hit and don't do enough damage to be super options. Potions are quite handy and not hard to make, but they tend to all be defensive/protective in nature (no flying or invisibility, more like healing or resistance). Crafting items is fairly non-restrictive, but it is harder to make really exciting items and the idea is that the DM keeps it in check by not giving out a megaton of treasure as costs are relatively high.The problem, if you consider it one, is that "weak at low level, strong at high level" is a kind of a dorky way to do things. For instance we played AD&D for about 20 years. Our campaigns went up to high level a couple times, but the VAST majority of play was always in low to mid levels. The wizard is always in that "paying for what I'll never get" mode, or else in the mid levels where he's still really the most vital PC in the group (really, consider adventuring without a wizard, possible but highly unfavorable to the party). If you then DO happen to get to high level you're even better off and frankly a party of all casters is probably the best option past 6th level. An MC thief to cover those skills is quite handy, but you can live without it. The whole followers thing was dubious. Basically the fighter can PAY and work to build a stronghold and get a bunch of considerably lower level (mostly 0 level) followers. ANY PC can spend a few gold and get a henchman that is basically as good as the 'captain' you get. The 0 level guys are pretty useless to a level 9 fighter. On top of that clerics get better followers than fighters do!4e cantrips are at-will but can do no damage at all. It is hard to tell exactly what Mike is referring to when he talks about cantrips.The problem is that you have a fighter who can admittedly do nice damage, but as soon as any situation is actually dangerous (IE when it really matters at all) the wizard steps in and poofs the threat out of existence or provides some spell to totally bypass it. This leaves the non-casters feeling like the ditch diggers. They do all the uninteresting minion slaying and the important stuff is handled by someone else. Also, there's really nothing clever about casting Grease or whatever. It is just all rote past a certain point.Yeah, but there's nothing WRONG with having spells fizzle. It certainly isn't 'dangerous' as described. I got the impression they were considering something more like a misfire chance, but he didn't delve into that. Because the XP cost thing was a royal PITA and made no sense. In 4e you just kept the amount of treasure in check and the monetary costs created the limitation. This allowed it to be fun to make items (vs the AD&D "walk through hell to make a potion, forget it" solution) and yet kept crafting them in check. Again, the 4e wand solution (once per encounter/day use, attack spells only) worked pretty well. OTOH consuming slots to cast from wands/scrolls sounds feasible to me.My experience in AD&D is that now and then a fireball or lightning bolt was pretty handy but they weren't the best use of a wizard's spell slots. By high level direct spell attacks were pretty hard to pull off. Half damage from attack spells wasn't really enough to justify them. My 14th level wizard had one fireball memorized. It could do pretty decent damage, but was mostly handy as an emergency way to clear out some mooks. Truly creative use of spells is nice, but most clever uses were pretty much rote by year 3 of AD&D (like 1981 basically). Outside of combat there were more interesting and creative uses of magic. Of course 4e's ritual magic is exactly designed to recreate that. You can whip out any of your rituals and use them whenever you need, but they aren't cheap to cast. So you aren't going to be constantly trotting them out for routine situations, but OTOH when you come up with a really clever use for one you don't have to lament the fact that you didn't happen to memorize it. Depending on what else 5e's casting system has in it, it could be good. Seems to me that the whole thing can be reasonably pleasing to all.</blockquote>

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