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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5915154" data-attributes="member: 22779">Sigh.&nbsp; Ok, let's look at a specific then1e Initiative rules.&nbsp; Compared to any later edition.&nbsp; I think there's a pretty clear example of where newer=better.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />Whether or not the book is more flavourful, or widely read or anything like that is irrelavent.&nbsp; That's entirely subjective.&nbsp; For every person singing praises of Gygaxian language, you've got another that loathes it.&nbsp; And, while yes, people were perfectly capable of writing coherent paragraphs in 1978, those people weren't writing D&amp;D.As far as finding material in the books, well, I'd say that's likely a result of the fact that you've been reading, and rereading the same book for 30 years.&nbsp; It certainly isn't because of good organization.&nbsp; Good grief.&nbsp; Are you really going to try to argue that the 1e DMG is well organized?But, all that aside, I do disagree.&nbsp; Layout is part of design.&nbsp; It has to be.&nbsp; How the rules are presented is every bit as important as the rules themselves.&nbsp; You can have the greatest rules in the world, but, if the layout is bad, the game doesn't work.&nbsp; Particularly if you have to reference the book during play.Once upon a time, the height of game design was basically to freeform anythign that wasn't combat.&nbsp; You want to talk to the guard?&nbsp; Other than some very rudimentary starting points with reaction tables, the mechanics were largely silent on the whole thing.&nbsp; You just &quot;talked it out&quot;.&nbsp; Later on, people started adding frameworks for detailing this kind of interaction.&nbsp; Even early RPG's other than D&amp;D had skills like fast talk and whatnot.&nbsp; That's been in RPG's and largely standard in most RPG's since the 80's.&nbsp; Social mechnanics aren't new with 3e.&nbsp; They've been a staple of RPG's other than D&amp;D since the 80's.&nbsp; If they were truly bad design, why does virtually every RPG out there, and certainly almost all mainstream RPG's, have social mechanics.&nbsp; It's just that D&amp;D had such a very long edition cycle that it took 3 editions and almost 25 years, to catch up to every other game out there.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 5915154, member: 22779"] Sigh. Ok, let's look at a specific then 1e Initiative rules. Compared to any later edition. I think there's a pretty clear example of where newer=better. :D Whether or not the book is more flavourful, or widely read or anything like that is irrelavent. That's entirely subjective. For every person singing praises of Gygaxian language, you've got another that loathes it. And, while yes, people were perfectly capable of writing coherent paragraphs in 1978, those people weren't writing D&D. As far as finding material in the books, well, I'd say that's likely a result of the fact that you've been reading, and rereading the same book for 30 years. It certainly isn't because of good organization. Good grief. Are you really going to try to argue that the 1e DMG is well organized? But, all that aside, I do disagree. Layout is part of design. It has to be. How the rules are presented is every bit as important as the rules themselves. You can have the greatest rules in the world, but, if the layout is bad, the game doesn't work. Particularly if you have to reference the book during play. Once upon a time, the height of game design was basically to freeform anythign that wasn't combat. You want to talk to the guard? Other than some very rudimentary starting points with reaction tables, the mechanics were largely silent on the whole thing. You just "talked it out". Later on, people started adding frameworks for detailing this kind of interaction. Even early RPG's other than D&D had skills like fast talk and whatnot. That's been in RPG's and largely standard in most RPG's since the 80's. Social mechnanics aren't new with 3e. They've been a staple of RPG's other than D&D since the 80's. If they were truly bad design, why does virtually every RPG out there, and certainly almost all mainstream RPG's, have social mechanics. It's just that D&D had such a very long edition cycle that it took 3 editions and almost 25 years, to catch up to every other game out there. [/QUOTE]

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